Only.me80, part 1 (Romans 3, none seek, inability)
(Happy New Year!) It's been quite awhile since I shared reader's comments from my comment blog, so I figured it's time for another one. I'll occasionally publish reader's comments in between the regular every-other-week posts. [Here are the ones I already shared: "Valerie and Anonymous at The Comment Corral" and "The Gospel Project: Calvinist or not?".]
This time, I'll be sharing the first part of my heavily-updated reply to Only.me80. I'll publish the next part in a couple weeks. To see my shorter original reply, click the link above to my comment blog.
Here's a comment from a reader called Only.me80:
Forget calvin or man's opinion
The Bible says " let God be true and every man a liar " If we stay with scripture we cannot be wrong. Paul's gospel is the gospel God wants us to HEAR. Romans 16:25. Paul clearly says THAT NONE seek after God. The book of John clearly says we cannot come and we will not come. The Bible speaks of man's total depravity
Thank God in mercy HE saves some. NONE are good and ALL are dead. So in mercy God must choose to save some
Here's my reply:
Thank you, Only.me80, for commenting. I appreciate your opinion and that you want to stay with Scripture. That's commendable. I'm going to write a reply to you soon to show briefly what I think Scripture plainly says. But if you're interested, see these posts of mine:
https://anticalvinistrant.blogspot.com/2021/10/is-calvinisms-tulip-biblical.html
https://anticalvinistrant.blogspot.com/2019/10/why-is-calvinism-so-dangerous-updated.html.
God bless! :)
Follow-up reply:
Hi again, Only.me80. Having researched Calvinism deeply for years, I know there's no "gotcha" verse or point that can settle the debate once and for all, whether Calvinist or non-Calvinist. But here are a few things to consider:
#1: About "Paul clearly says THAT NONE seek after God."
Calvinists insert "inability" into places it doesn't belong, such as into "total depravity" and "spiritual death" and Romans 3:11 ("There is no one who seeks God"). They use that verse to support their idea that "total depravity" means "total inability" which means that no one has the ability to seek God and, therefore, God must cause the Calv-elect to seek Him, whereas the non-Calvi-elect can never seek Him because He doesn't cause them to.
But the verse doesn't say "no one can seek God" or "we are unable to seek God unless He causes us to."
It just says that we don't.
But the important thing to know is this: Romans 3:10-18 is a reference to Old Testament verses, such as Psalms 14 and 53. And these Psalms clearly explain why people don't seek God: Because they have turned away from Him and claimed that there is no God.
"The fool says in his heart 'There is no God.'... All have turned aside, they have together become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one." (Psalm 14:1,3).
And Romans 3:12 echoes it: "All have turned away."
Those who turn away from God and cling to their wickedness won't seek Him and can't understand spiritual things. They have rejected Him and chosen to ignore His truth, and so their spiritual eyes and ears have become worthless.
So it's not that we can't seek God, but it's that people who choose their sin over God become corrupt, hard-hearted, and spiritually blind, and so they won't seek Him.
As Psalm 10:4 says: "In his pride the wicked does not seek him; in all his thoughts there is no room for God."
Their decision to reject Him leads to their inability to see Him, seek Him, and believe in Him - not the other way around, as Calvinism teaches.
Our decision to turn to God or away from God determines whether or not we find Him, understand truth, and are saved. And this is confirmed over and over again in the Bible:
Matthew 13:15: "For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn, and I would heal them.'" [Jesus is saying that if the people didn't choose to be calloused to the truth, to cover their ears and close their eyes to the truth, then they would be able to see the truth, turn to Jesus, and be healed. But they chose to be blind and hard-hearted, and so they couldn't understand Jesus and wouldn't believe in Him.]
John 12:37,39: “Even after Jesus had done all these miraculous signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him.... For this reason, they could not believe.” ["Would not" led to "could not."]
Zechariah 7:11-13: "But they refused to pay attention; stubbornly they turned their backs and stopped up their ears. They made their hearts as hard as flint and would not listen to the law or to [the Lord]. So the Lord Almighty was very angry. 'When I called, they did not listen; so when they called, I would not listen,' says the Lord Almighty."
Hebrews 3:12-15: "See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God…. so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness… Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts...”
2 Kings 17:14-15: “But they would not listen and were as stiff-necked as their fathers, who did not trust in the Lord their God. They rejected his decrees and the covenant he made with their fathers and the warnings he had given them. They followed worthless idols and themselves became worthless…”
Romans 11:20,23: "But they were broken off because of unbelief ... And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in ..."
John 5:40: “yet you refuse to come to me to have life.”
Matthew 23:37: “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.”
Isaiah 65:2-3: “All day long I have held out my hands to an obstinate people, who walk in ways not good, pursuing their own imaginations – people who continually provoke me to my very face …”
Romans 1:18-2:5: “The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities – his eternal power and divine nature – have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened... Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind... But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed."
#2: About "The Bible speaks of man's total depravity."
Yes, but what does it say about depravity?
Because nowhere does it say that "total depravity is total inability." Total depravity is not about being so terrible that we're unable to seek or believe in God on our own.
[Sidenote: To support their view of total depravity/total inability - that we're totally wretchedly evil all the time, with nothing good at all in us that would make us want to seek God on our own - Calvinists refer to Genesis 6:5 "And the Lord saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time." But, in context, this is not a generalized statement about humans. It's about the people of Noah's day, a mixed human-demon hybrid of people who were so wicked that God had to flood the earth to start over again. (But Noah was spared because his bloodline was pure, uncorrupted by demonic genes.) This extreme situation cannot be used to prove Calvinism's extreme view of the extreme depravity of humans in general. And it certainly can't be used to push "total inability."]
And so if Romans 3 is not teaching "total depravity/total inability," then what is it teaching?
Romans 3 is Paul teaching the Jews that they are no better than the Gentiles, spiritually speaking - that everyone is separated from God by sin (Gentiles and Jews), that God is just in punishing everyone (even Jews) for their unrighteousness (Jewish people don't get a free pass just because they're Jewish), and that Jewish people aren't declared righteous just because of their bloodline or because they follow the law.
Paul is teaching that everyone is a sinner who needs Jesus (including the Jews), that salvation is found in Jesus alone (not in good works or bloodlines), and that the Jewish people can't hoard God and salvation for themselves, that God is the God of all people, that salvation is offered to all people, and that anyone who believes will be saved, even Gentiles.
Romans 3:9,20,22-24,28-29: "What shall we conclude then? Are we [Jews] better [than Gentiles]? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin... Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law... The righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus... For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. Is God the God of the Jews only? Is he not the God of the Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too,"
Biblically, Romans 3 is about all men being under the consequence of sin and about God providing the solution for all men, the way and opportunity to be saved. Biblically, depravity and spiritual death simply mean that we are separated from God by sin, that we can't do anything to save ourselves.
“As for you, you were dead in your trespasses and sins” (Ephesians 2:1)
"But your iniquities have separated you from your God..." (Isaiah 59:2)
And so a biblical view of "total inability" isn't that we're totally unable to seek or believe in God unless He makes us do it, but it's that we are totally unable to save ourselves or earn our way to heaven, and so we need Jesus's help. All of us.
And this is what Romans 3 is teaching, the heart of the gospel: Everyone is spiritually dead (even Jews), separated from God because of sin... and we can't bridge that gap ourselves or earn salvation on our own through good works, keeping the law, or bloodlines... and so we all need a Savior to help us get to heaven, a Savior who paid for our sins to bridge the gap between us and God, making salvation possible for us ... and Jesus is that Savior, dying for all people to give everyone the offer of salvation.
But if you let Calvinists convince you that "spiritual death" and "total depravity" and "no one seeks" means that "we are totally unable to seek or believe in God unless He causes it to happen," you will become a Calvinist.
[See "TULIP's Totally-Depraved Doctrine" for more on why Calvinism's "doctrine of total depravity" is wrong and how it backfires.]
#3: About "The book of John clearly says we cannot come and we will not come."
I agree that we couldn't come to God on our own (but I don't agree with "will not"). We humans could never find Him unless He wanted to be found. We couldn't come to Him unless He made it possible for us to come to Him.
If God didn't want us to find Him or know Him, He could've stayed hidden and left us in total darkness, completely unaware of His existence. Left to ourselves - without Him revealing Himself - we never would've even known there was a God and, therefore, we never would've been able to come to Him.
But God wants to be found. He wants us to come to Him. And so He had to make this possible - and He did make it possible - by revealing enough of Himself in nature and in our hearts to show us that He's real, to call us to Him, to draw us to Him.
"But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." (John 12:32)
“... since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities – his eternal power and divine nature – have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.” (Romans 1:19-20)
“The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge. There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard. Their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world.” (Psalm 19:1-4, explaining how "God has made it plain to them," how He proved His existence and displayed His invisible qualities for all to see)
"... [God] has also set eternity in the hearts of men." (Ecc. 3:11)
"(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law...they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness...)" (Romans 2:14-15)
"For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men." (Titus 2:11)
He wants us to seek Him and find Him so that we believe in Him and are saved.
All of us.
"For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all." (Romans 11:32)
"... He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9)
"But the angel said to them, 'Do not be afraid. I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all people.'" (Luke 2:10)
“… 'Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the whole world.'” (John 1:29)
"He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." (1 John 2:2)
"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Jesus Christ." (Romans 3:23-24)
"This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men..." (1 Tim. 2:3-5)
"... that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe." (1 Timothy 4:10)
So it's not (as Calvinists say) that we don't have the ability to seek Him or believe in Him on our own and so He has to cause it to happen. It's not that God predestines who believes and who doesn't. It's not that God only loves some lucky people (the Calv-elect) enough to save them, that He calls only to them, draws only them, and gives only them the ability to seek Him and believe in Him. It's not that Jesus died for only those few lucky people. It's not that people who reject Him and go to hell do so because God predestined it and created them to be unable to believe in Him and didn't let Jesus pay for their sins on the cross - all because God wanted them in hell for His glory.
It's that God - to save us all from hell - put enough evidence of Himself in nature and in our hearts that we can all see Him, seek Him, find Him, and believe in Him. And He expects us to do this. He wants us to do this. Because He loves us all and wants us all with Him in heaven.
"God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us." (Acts 17:27)
But He lets us decide if we want Him or not. If we want to seek Him or ignore Him. Accept Him or reject Him. Spend eternity with Him or without Him.
He lets us choose.
And in the end, He gives us what we chose, even if it's the eternal damnation that He didn't want for anyone, that He tried to save us all from, that He died to spare us from.
"... 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live...'" (Ezekiel 33:11)
"Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?" (Romans 2:4, talking to wicked, resistant, depraved people)
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him." (John 3:16-17)
"... I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents" (Luke 15:10)
Can you not see how very different this is from Calvinism? How Calvinism is a very different gospel, with a very different god? How is this not breaking your heart and making you righteously angry? Why are there not more Christians fighting against this?
The God of the Bible loves all people, wants all people saved, and calls all people. He gave all people the option, ability, and opportunity to see Him, seek Him, believe in Him and be saved. He sent Jesus to die for all people, to pay the penalty for all our sins so that we don't have to. He does not ordain, want, or cause any sin, evil, or unbelief. And the angels rejoice every time a sinner is saved.
But Calvi-god predestined people to hell and created them unable to believe (while also commanding them to believe). He is pleased to "ordain" sin, evil, and unbelief - and, in fact, he's glorified by it. He punishes people for the sin he ordained and caused (even holding babies accountable for sin). And Calvinists believe it's as equally glorifying to Calvi-god whether someone is saved or damned - and so we should rejoice in the damnation of the non-Calv-elect, because it demonstrates Calvi-god's justice, brings him glory, pleases him, and it shows how much he loves us by comparison. (Woo-hoo for us!)
A very different gospel!
A very different god!
[I'm just wondering, but how wrong does a theology have to be and how much damage does it have to do to God's truth, God's character, and the gospel before it's considered totally blasphemous and heretical? Just wondering, on a totally unrelated note.😉]
For more, see:
Calvinist Hogwash #3 (the reprobate)
Calvinist Hogwash #4 (hell and justice)
Calvinist Hogwash #5 (rejoicing about hell)
"But Calvinists don't say God causes sin and evil!"
As evil as it gets: Calvinism on babies and the unreached
