Calvinist Hogwash #5 (rejoicing about hell)
(Some of these quotes might've better fit the "hell and justice" post, but I didn't find them in time, so I put them here.)
Some Calvinists seem to think that it's most God-honoring to rejoice about hell, to celebrate the fact that Calvi-god predestines non-elect people to hell to show off his justice, for his glory. They sensationalize the glory of it all and say that it's better for the elect that there are people in hell. They say that if God gets glory by predestining people to hell [they're wrong!], then it's wrong to get upset about it.
Of course, most Calvinists don't go to that extreme, but it's quite sickening when they do.
C. Matthew McMahon (The Two Wills of God, pg 349): "The saints should delight in the reprobation of the wicked... We come to understand and praise God concerning the damnation of other people. We understand that we could have been what they are. We contemplate their eternal destiny, and bow before the throne to praise the Creator and the Father we have. How awesome is that grace which He bestowed upon us in His Son!"
R.C. Sproul ("The reformed view of predestination"): "In the Reformed view, God from all eternity decrees some to election and positively intervenes in their lives to work regeneration and faith by a monergistic work of grace. To the non-elect, God withholds this monergistic work of grace, passing them by and leaving them to themselves.... God shows mercy sovereignly and unconditionally to some and gives justice to those passed over in election.... We rejoice in the biblical clarity which reveals God’s sovereignty in majestic terms. We rejoice in the knowledge of divine mercy and grace that go to such extremes to redeem the elect. We rejoice that God’s glory and honor are manifested both in His mercy and in His justice." [Yeah, but, Calvi-god's kind of justice is not justice. It's injustice disguised as justice, evil disguised as good.]
Geoffrey Kirkland [""Psalm 58:10- rejoice at the destruction of the wicked?". And remember that it's one thing when people choose to be wicked, but it would be another thing for God to preplan/cause them to be wicked because He predestined them to hell and they couldn't do anything about it.]:
"Does the Bible really say that the righteous will rejoice at God's vengeance upon the wicked? Yes, it does... when the Christian has a God-centered perspective, it is absolutely reasonable—yes, required—that believers rejoice at the destruction of the wicked.
... For God to judge them [the wicked] eternally and violently is absolutely in tune with His holy character. [Yes, but to "ordain" them to be wicked is not! To punish them for what they cannot help being is not!] Thus, believers must rejoice because GOD is being vindicated. [Against what? His own decrees?]
... When God judges the wicked, the righteous should rejoice because all unrighteous rebellion will be judged [unrighteous rebellion that was first preplanned by and then orchestrated by Calvi-god!]
... Thus, when God destroys the wicked and brings vengeance upon them, the righteous must rejoice because God's power and God's supremacy is beautifully and gloriously put on display. [Yes, but wasn't it Calvi-god's power and supremacy that made them be wicked in the first place!]
... We must rejoice because God's sovereignty is revealed when He (and only He can do this!) brings His vengeance upon those who reject Him and rebel against Him. [Yes, but wasn't it Calvi-god's "sovereignty" that caused them to reject him and rebel against him in the first place!]
... Finally, believers must rejoice because the eternal destruction of the wicked means eternal glorification for the saints... Eternal judgment for the wicked guarantees eternal life for the righteous. [So without the damnation of the non-elect, the elect couldn't have or enjoy eternal life!?!]
Note that none of these seven points includes the righteous rejoicing that the wicked are finally pounded with God's judgment... Rather, with a God-centered perspective—that is to say, that God does absolutely everything to magnify His Name and exalt His own Character [and that should scare the crap out of Calvinists, considering the kind of god Calvi-god is]—all of these points are not only reasonable, they are desirable and anticipated. God is a good God who must punish sin [sin that Calvi-god first preplanned and then caused. And for the record, "good" loses all meaning when it can look and act just like evil.]."
David Mathis, 9Marks ("Hallelujah over hell? How God's people rejoice while their enemies perish"): "... We plainly don’t think of hell as a reason for God’s people to rejoice... The idea that we might someday enjoy God’s justice and power on display in his judgment—the idea that hell might provoke our Hallelujah!—seems almost imponderable.
Yet [in the end]... we will rejoice in his power on display in the destruction of the wicked [who were wicked by Calvi-god's decree]. Even now, we can shape our hearts to rejoice appropriately in those truths.
... Some Christians today may reluctantly think about hell, Well, God said it. I’ll believe it, but I don’t like it... While we might admirably profess to hold to God’s Word, our 'not liking it' is no evidence of maturity. In fact, it’s an expression of moral immaturity, if not error or sin.
... We want to mature in this by meditating on the happiness of God’s people not despite but because of God’s destruction of the wicked... As [God's] justice descends on those [in Revelation] who endure and deepen in their rebellion against their Maker [by Calvi-god's decree], God’s people rejoice because they know themselves to be recipients of his grace... Divine judgments against the wicked are for you. [If the eternal damnation of people is so good, praiseworthy, God-glorifying, and beneficial for the elect, why would any Calvinist truly desire the salvation of all people?]
... When we get to glory, we’ll find eternal joy in the God of lavish mercy and uncompromising justice. In fact, we wouldn’t be able to find eternal, ever-increasing, ever-deepening joy in a God who was unjust. Deep down, we don’t want a God without wrath and power.
... While we may struggle now with how the eternal destruction of the wicked could be a cause for joy, we won’t struggle forever... [In the end] We will not cringe. We will cry hallelujah."
[Way to make a terrible thing sound good and godly! Not to mention that it's one thing to be thankful for and praise God for true justice, for punishing those who truly deserve it because they chose to be wicked. But it's a whole different thing to praise God for fake justice (injustice passed off as justice), such as Calvi-god first creating/predestining people to be unbelievers... and then he pretends to offer them salvation, as if they can really accept it even though they can't... but then he causes them to reject it just like he predestined... and then he punishes them in hell for rejecting it even though that's all they could do by his decree... all so that he can show off his "justice" and get glory for it.
Nonsense and hogwash! That's not true justice. And it's certainly not praiseworthy.
But I do agree with Mathis when he says "In fact, we wouldn’t be able to find eternal, ever-increasing, ever-deepening joy in a God who was unjust" - and this is why Calvinists could never be truly joyful in their relationship with the god of Calvinism. He is unjust, unloving, untrustworthy, duplicitous, pleased to orchestrate sin, delights in unbelief, wants people in hell, deceptive by saying one thing but meaning another, wants and causes people to break his revealed decrees, and is glorified by sin, wickedness, unbelief, and the eternal damnation of people. Sounds a lot like Satan to me.]
Paul Washer (“The Gospel is only Good News to a needy man”): “If you reject Christ, then the moment when you take your first step through the gates of hell, the only thing you will hear is all of creation standing to its feet and applauding and praising God because God has rid the earth of you. That’s how not good you are." [And yet Ez. 18:23 says that God Himself does not take any pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that He'd rather they turn from their evil ways and be saved. But apparently Calvinists think that everything and everyone should - and will - take pleasure in the death and destruction of the wicked. That's sick.]
R.C. Sproul (start at the 4:45-minute mark in the Idol Killer video "James White Responds - Infant Salvation?"): "Don't you know that when you're in heaven, you'll be so sanctified that you'll be able to see your own mother in hell and rejoice in that, knowing that God's perfect justice is being carried out."
Will Graham, ("God's glory is more important than us"): "Back in December 2013 I remember feeling overwhelmed by a powerful passage in Matt Chandler’s book ‘Explicit Gospel’ (2012) wherein he argues convincingly that, 'From beginning to end, the Scriptures reveal that the foremost desire of God’s heart is not our salvation but rather the glory of His own name. God’s glory is what drives the universe; it is why everything exists.'
... God works for 'the glory of His name'. That is the real purpose of your life and existence. Everything is ultimately subject to the grand purpose of glorifying God’s great name. That’s right- everything! Even salvation and condemnation! God will be glorified eternally independently of what lot befalls the sons of men.
So God calls you to rejoice in Him, in His will and in His glory because you were created by Him and for Him.
So go on! Glorify the God of the Gospel, the God who created and redeemed you [or who didn't redeem you, you non-elect] for His own good pleasure."
[But if even condemnation is for His glory, then the elect must also rejoice in the condemnation of the non-elect because it was just as much "God's will" and just as glorifying to Him as the salvation of the elect. After all, "the foremost desire of God's heart is not our salvation but rather the glory of His own name," according to Calvinist Chandler. So the elect shouldn't care about whether or not someone is saved (Calvi-god doesn't!); they should just care - and rejoice - that Calvi-god gets glory either way. That's what Graham is really saying.]
Marshall Beretta ("Why doesn't God allow a window period of repentance from Hades?") [I'm not disagreeing with the idea that this lifetime is our time to choose (it would be great if there was still a chance for people to repent after death, but I don't see any clear support for that in Scripture), but I am disagreeing with the Calvinist idea of election and predestination, their ideas of how people end up in heaven or hell.]:
"Only the elect can be saved; and no one who is elect ever reaches death not having responded to God's gift of salvation. [Well, how comforting for the elect. But not so much for the non-elect.] Thus, there is no meaningful reason for God to have some kind of a 'grace window' after death, or in Hell. Hell can only contain those creatures who were satisfied with their sinfulness and never responded to Christ [by Calvi-god's decree]. They are condemned by their own desire to remain slaves of sin [because Calvi-god prevented them from being able to want to change.]... a lack of desiring a relationship with Him [by his decree] results in eternal separation from Him [just as he predestined].
... God is always glorified by His own acts. Creation, in turn, magnifies the glory of God. What is this reason for creation? I believe it was to show the glorious magnitude of His Person by contrasting It with something that did not (indeed, could not) exist within the eternal Godhead–disobedience, sin, death, salvation, triumph, etc.... He is glorified in the contrast between the Infinite and the finite. [So according to Calvinism, God needed evil and sin to show how good and glorious He is. So then, what was He before evil existed? How lacking was His glory before sin came into the world? And according to Calvinism, He created people to show how great He is in comparison to them. But while I believe God did create people for something that didn't exist in the Trinity, I don't think it was that He created sinful people to get more glory for punishing them or to look better in comparison. I think that, according to the Bible, God created people so that He could love them and be loved by them, voluntarily. See "God's Greatest Priority (why there's a hell)."]
... The world is thus inhabited by two groups of mankind–the elect and the non-elect. Both are obviously part of God's decree. Since God is Omnipotent and sovereign, the elect cannot possible 'choose' to not be saved; neither can the Non-elect choose to be saved..."
Ligonier ministries ("God's glory in salvation"):
"... [God's] refusal to share His glory is particularly evident in His work of salvation... God alone will receive the glory in our salvation, for salvation is a manifestation of His glory. His omnipotence, His mercy, His love, and His holiness are in a sense all summed up in His glory, and all of these attributes are on display in His work of salvation.
How is this possible? In the first instance, God’s treatment of the 'vessels of wrath' shows us divine glory because this treatment manifests His justice. The elect will see the Lord justly condemn the impenitent, and so they will more clearly see His attributes of justice and righteousness, thereby receiving a fuller revelation of His character and thus His glory. ["And then the elect will be able to enjoy heaven more and praise Him more. Their joy and praise wouldn't have been complete without knowing that Calvi-god predestined others to eternal damnation out of his 'justice and righteousness.'" But, I ask, how it can be "just and right" to punish people for something they had no control over, something Calvi-god created them to do and be? I guess, as they say, "it's a mystery and we'll never know until we die, so we just have to trust, even if it seems evil to us. God is God. He is so far above us. We can't understand his ways. Who are we, O men, to talk back to the all-powerful, sovereign God?" Hogwash!]
... When we understand that we deserve salvation no more than the reprobate do [meaning that they deserve predestined damnation no more than we do], we will be in awe that God has redeemed us. [Like the kind of glorious "awe" that comes with watching a psychopath beat the person next to you to death as a gift to you, to show you how much he "loves" you in comparison.]
John Calvin comments, 'The greatness of divine mercy towards the elect is hereby more clearly made known; for how do they differ from [the reprobate] except that they are delivered by the Lord from the same gulf of destruction? And this by no merit of their own, but through his gratuitous kindness.'” [If showing "kindness" to some must include eternally damning others, then I'd hate to see unkindness.]
John Piper ("How does it glorify God to predestine people to hell?") says that having sin and people in hell is ultimately good because it makes God's grace and mercy (for the elect only!) and the experience of salvation (for the elect only!) "shine the more brightly" by contrast. And it makes the elect feel a "more exquisite joy and gratitude for our salvation... our gratitude will be intensified." So "How does God get glory? He gets glory because his grace and mercy shine more brightly against the darker backdrop of sin and judgment and wrath, and our worship and our experience of that grace intensifies and deepens because we see we don’t deserve to be where we are [compared to the non-elect]." [So the joy of the few elect at being saved is worth the torment of the many non-elect predestined to hell!?! That's sick!]
Greg Morse ("What does hell say about God?", Desiring God): "The first consideration is clarifying what sort of creature will be under God’s wrath forever. The little old lady who has shown herself to be a selfless, gentle, patient, forgiving, and amiable neighbor may have a quaint funeral. But the person eulogized is not the person who she truly was nor who she will show herself to be in eternity to come. God has hidden her from us. At death, God repossesses all borrowed virtue, the full torrent of her wicked heart is unleashed. She will be fully given over to her sin...
The hatred of God, the impatience, the lustful thoughts, the greed, the slander, the viciousness, all will stampede forth. The evil that showed itself in seed form on earth will grow to be forests. The light of common grace will fade from her, and she will be given to the darkness which she so loved (John 3:19). Her full depravity, now exposed, will cause the saints who cared most for her on earth to shudder. Sin, fully enthroned, dehumanizes...
Hell, like all of creation, tells of the glory of God... The Almighty is not embarrassed by it... He shows his wrath and makes known his power. Why? In order to communicate the full riches of his glory to his children..."
[Painting the little old lady as a devil in disguise makes it easier to consign her to hell, doesn't it, with no concern for her eternal torment, convinced that she totally and justly deserves it? Makes it easier to rejoice over hell, doesn't it? Assured that "true justice" is being done? And yet, Calvinists ignore the fact, in Calvinism, God decreed that the little old lady would be that way and she had no chance or ability to choose otherwise. How is that "deserving it"? How is that "justice"? How is that "glorifying" to God? (It should be terrifying to Calvinists that something like that is glorifying to God!) How is that something to rejoice over and praise God for? How can we trust a God like that?
And just a reminder: Matthew 25:41 tells us why hell was created: "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.'" Hell was created for the devil and rebellious angels, not for people. And so if hell wasn't created for people, how could people be created for hell (especially if everything was preplanned by God at the same time, from the very beginning, as Calvinists say)?
We choose to follow the devil to hell if we choose to remain part of Satan's kingdom instead of joining God's kingdom, but hell was not intended for people. And people weren't intended for hell.]
Robert Golding [Themelios, Vol 46, Issue 1, "Making Sense of Hell". While I agree that those in heaven will not spend eternity feeling sad about those in hell - because God promises to wipe away every tear when eternity comes - I have a problem with the idea of Calvinists trying to find ways to be okay with their idea that God predestines people to be unbelievers who go to hell.]:
"... Jonathan Edwards taught that the saints in heaven will rejoice over the damnation of their unbelieving family members in hell because they will be witnessing the justice of God in glorious display. While I agree with this assertion, it seems more needs to be said in order for it to make sense to us. Seeing those family members as less-than-human beings devoid of anything that we once loved in them, I argue, makes sense of his teaching.
... [John] Calvin is saying that the goodness we perceive in other people is nothing other than subsistence in God that should lead us to him. I argue that those subsistences are all but removed from the damned and therefore the glorified saints have no reason to look to the damned with affection, for their felicity is completely to be found in goodness, which is completely in God... Before judgement, they were worthy of affection because they were potentially redeemable [only if they were elect, according to Calvinism] and they contained some of God’s goodness. After judgement, they are no longer redeemable, and any goodness they once contained will then be gone...
If the persons in hell are devoid of God’s goodness, they are as evil as possible. So much so that we should not even use the term 'human' to describe them... Therefore, we should imagine a repugnant distillation of evil in hell, not an amalgamation of lost souls and poor misled Buddhists, etc. If we think of the former as opposed to the latter, it seems we can intuitively agree with God’s wrath upon it. [Whatever helps you sleep at night.]
... Further, if we recognize that this repugnant distillation of evil would like nothing more than the death of God and destruction of his sons and daughters, we can find ourselves singing with David, 'Do I not hate those who hate you, O Lord? And do I not loathe those who rise up against you? I hate them with complete hatred; I count them my enemies' (Ps 139:21–22). [Remember, though, that Calvi-god ordained the non-elect to be God-haters. They had no chance or ability to think any other way.]
... Traditionally, Christians [Calvinists!] have taught that the necessity of hell is such that, without it, God would not be fully glorified since his justice would not be fully manifest. In this vein Edwards said that 'mercy and grace are more valuable on this account. The more they [that is, the saints in heaven] shall see of the justice of God, the more will they prize and rejoice in his love.'
.... I have sought to show that the reprobate are so hellish that any fond feelings for them (as the universalists seek to evoke) are misplaced...."
Robert Murray M'cheyne, Monergism ("Vessels of wrath fitted to destruction", from a sermon preached in 1843, talking up the "good" reasons for the damnation of the non-elect]:
"... In a former discourse, brethren, I attempted to show you that the reason why God will punish the wicked eternally is, because he loveth righteousness... There are three reasons set down here why men are allowed to perish.
I. The first is, that God was willing to show His wrath.... The bow of God's justice is, as it were, already bent against the wicked, the arrow of God's is already on the string against the wicked. And then we are told that His wrath is intolerable... There is one exhibition of his wrath yet to come... God is yet to destroy the souls that he has made... There is to be a new exhibition of wrath that the world never saw the like of before. He is going to show what he will do to the despisers of his Son - to those who despise his gospel... Ah, brethren! it will be fearful to feel it - it is fearful even to think of it. So I believe it will be with the wicked: they will be beacons, to show how God will punish sin.
II. I come now to the second reason why any are left to perish - it is, that God may show his power... Brethren, there is one exhibition of divine power that yet remains - it is, the destruction of the wicked... I say, in regard of those of you in this congregation who will die unsaved, that God has raised you up, to show his power in you... God will destroy their well-being, but not their being. Here, then, is another exhibition of the power of God... Ah, brethren! will it not be fearful to see God put out his power upon the wicked - to see him upholding them with one hand, and pouring out his wrath upon them with the other?...
III. I come now to the third point - the reason given why believers are saved... One reason why there are vessels of wrath fitted to destruction is, that God may show by contrast the riches of his grace on the vessels of mercy. You know, brethren, we learn many things best by contrast: for example, the rainbow is never seen so bright as in the bosom of a dark cloud. So, brethren, we shall never see the love and compassion of God in them that are saved so gloriously displayed as when we see his wrath poured out on the vessels of wrath. This, then, is one reason why there are vessels of wrath.
I believe that the 'riches of glory' here spoken of are the whole rainbow of the divine attributes displayed in the salvation of souls. It was for this reason that God provided that there should be vessels of wrath fitted for destruction. This may appear to you very awful: it is so to myself. I could not and dare not speak of it if it were not here in God's own Word.
I would just show you one or two of his attributes that will be brilliantly illustrated in the salvation of souls. One is, the sovereignty of God... Suppose that day were come, and this congregation divided, some on the left hand, some on the right, will you not see then God's sovereignty in the contrast? You were once all the same. You were under the same condemnation. Some of you came out of the same womb - were nursed at the same mother's breast; yet it will be seen that some will be taken and some left. What made the difference? Every creature will see that God made the difference, that he had 'mercy on whom he would have mercy.'
... All will not be saved... Some of you, I think, are going to hell, and some, I trust, are going to heaven; and doubtless it is best it should be so, though I cannot explain the reason of it.
... Every one of you will be to the glory of God. You will be made to glorify him in one way or another. You will either do it willingly or unwillingly. You must form a step to his throne. Ah, brethren! I believe each of you will yet be a beacon or a monument - either a beacon of wrath or a monument of mercy... If you come to Christ [and in Calvinism, that's a big 'IF' and it's not up to you], you will show forth his glory in saving you; but if you do not, God will show forth his power in destroying a vessel of his wrath.
... the chief end of God in the world to manifest his glory... self-manifestation... [Once again, see "God's Greatest Priority (why there's a hell)." Every other god out there - wicked gods - do whatever they want for themselves, bad or good, for their own glory and pleasure, putting themselves first. But it's the self-sacrificial love of the god of the Bible that sets Him apart from all the others. And yet Calvinism ultimately undoes that, making Him just like all the other narcissistic gods out there. Calvi-god sacrifices people for himself, for his pleasure and glory. But the God of the Bible sacrificed Himself for people, out of love. These are two very different Gods.] This seems to be the reason why there are vessels of wrath as well as of mercy - that they might be mirrors to reflect his attributes. And I believe, brethren, when creation is done, and when redemption is done, that there will then be a complete manifestation of the glory of God.
... Last of all, the destruction of the vessels of wrath will be no grief to the vessels of mercy. I once spoke to you of this before; but I would again remind you of it. The redeemed will have no tears to shed; and here is the reason - the very destruction of the wicked makes known the riches of divine grace..."
Randy Alcorn ("Hell: Eternal sovereign justice exacted upon evildoers"): "When most people speak of what a terrible notion Hell is, they talk as if it involves the suffering of innocent people. That would indeed be terribly unjust—but nowhere does the Bible suggest the innocent will spend a single moment in Hell. [So Calvinists say that since no one is "innocent" then it's good and just for God to reprobate people to hell, to predestine them to be unbelievers, and then to punish them for being unbelievers. Calvinists are totally confused on what the real issue is here, totally ignorant of the real problem! Our problem isn't with the reason God supposedly predestines people to hell or who He predestines to hell; our problem is with the very idea that God predestines anyone to hell! And if Calvinism is right (it isn't!) that all people are born totally-depraved God-haters, that no one is born innocent, then why does God call the children who were sacrificed to false gods "innocent" in Jeremiah 19:4-5: "For they have forsaken me and made this a place of foreign gods; they have burned sacrifices in it to gods ... and have filled this place with the blood of the innocent. They have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as an offering to Baal - something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind." God calls the children who were sacrificed "innocent," but Calvinists call them "wicked, morally-depraved, God-haters, in rebellion against God, and completely cut off from Him." I wonder who's wrong. For more on this, see "Is Calvinism's TULIP biblical?" and "Do babies go to heaven or hell? A critique of Calvinism's answer".]
... Without Hell, justice would never overtake the unrepentant tyrants responsible for murdering millions. Perpetrators of evil throughout the ages would get away with murder—and rape, and torture, and every evil. [So, obviously "praise Calvi-god for creating these people to be the evil, violent people they are, doing the evil, violent things he predestined them to do, so that he could punish them in hell for their evil and violence, so that we can see justice done, so that we can love and trust and praise Calvi-god more." And... I wonder... how many of the non-elect are tyrants and murderers and rapists?]
... Hell is not evil; it’s a place where evil gets punished [evil ordained by Calvi-god!]... Hell is morally good, because a good God must punish evil. [Yes, but is Calvi-god really "good" if he first preplans and then causes that evil? "Good" and "evil" lose all meaning in Calvinism because it essentially erases the line between good and evil.]
Hell will not be a blot on the universe, but an eternal testimony to the ugliness of evil that will prompt wondrous appreciation of a good God’s magnificence...
If we better understood both God’s nature [how holy He is] and our own [how sinful we are], we would not feel shocked that some people go to Hell. (Where else could sinners go?) Rather, we would feel shocked—as perhaps the angels do—that any fallen human would be permitted into Heaven. Unholy as we are in ourselves, we are disqualified to claim that infinite holiness cannot demand everlasting punishment. [But that's not the problem in Calvinism. The problem is that Calvi-god ordains, preplans, and causes all the sin that he commands us not to do... and then he punishes us for it. The problem is that he prevents the non-elect from believing in him... and then he punishes them for it. That's the problem! That's what we're shocked about! Because that's not a holy or trustworthy or good god. That's not justice.]
... It saddens me to think of people suffering forever. But if there were no Hell, that would diminish the very attributes of God that make Hell necessary and Heaven available. [Calvinists claim that to be fully glorified, God needed to fully demonstrate all of His attributes, including His wrath and justice, so that He could get praise and worship for it... and so that's why He made non-elect people to punish. And so, essentially, He couldn't be perfectly and fully God - or perfectly satisfied and glorified - unless and until He demonstrated His wrath and justice against sin. But this makes me wonder then: Was God not fully God, not fully glorified, not fully satisfied, in the garden of Eden before mankind fell, before there was sin to punish? Was God lying when - after creating man in the garden of Eden but before there was sin to punish - He called it "very good"? How could it be "very good" if God needed sin to punish to show off His wrath and justice so that He could get the most glory possible? And doesn't this - doesn't Calvinism - just make God's "God-ness" dependent on sin, on humans? Talk about reducing God and elevating man! A man-centered theology!]
Should we want Hell eliminated if our righteous God determines it should exist? I believe we should leave Hell in God’s hands, trust him, and submit to his judgment, not our own... Just because I don’t like the idea of Hell doesn’t make Hell unjust... [Yeah, but the problem in Calvinism is how people end up in hell. That's what makes it unjust! And the bigger problem is the damage it does to God's character and Truth, how untrustworthy, unrighteous, unloving, unjust, and evil it makes Him!]
... The believer has been granted an eternal identity with the nature of Christ, and this identity allows him to enter Heaven. But at death the unregenerate person, the unrepentant sinner, forever remains unregenerate. There is no longer a possibility of transformation. [If they were non-elect, there never was.]"
Jonathan Edwards ("The End of the Wicked Contemplated by the Righteous", section 2):
"... the just damnation of the wicked will be an occasion of rejoicing to the saints in glory... [they will] rejoice in seeing the justice of God executed, and in seeing his love to them in executing it on his enemies...
... the sufferings of the damned will be no occasion of grief to the heavenly inhabitant, as they will have no love nor pity to the damned as such.... the heavenly inhabitants will know that it is not fit that they should love them, because they will know then, that God has no love to them, nor pity for them; but that they are the objects of God’s eternal hatred...
... God glorifies himself in the eternal damnation of the ungodly men. God glorifies himself in all that he doth; but he glorifies himself principally in his eternal disposal of his intelligent creatures, some are appointed to everlasting life, and others left to everlasting death.
The saints in heaven will be perfect in their love to God: their hearts will be all a flame of love to God, and therefore they will greatly value the glory of God, and will exceedingly delight in seeing him glorified.... They will therefore greatly rejoice in all that contributes to that glory. The glory of God will in their esteem be of greater consequence, than the welfare of thousands and millions of souls.
Particularly,
(1) They will rejoice in seeing the justice of God glorified in the sufferings of the damned... divine justice in the destruction of the wicked will then appear as light without darkness, and will shine as the sun without clouds, and on this account will they sing joyful songs of praise to God... The more they shall see of the justice of God, the more will they prize and rejoice in his love.
(2.) They will rejoice in it, as it will be a glorious manifestation of the power and majesty of God. God will show his own greatness in executing vengeance on ungodly men....God will show his glorious power in destroying these enemies. The power of God is sometimes spoken of as very glorious, as appearing in the temporal destruction of his enemies... But how much more glorious will it appear in his triumphing over, and dashing in pieces at once, all his enemies, wicked men and devils together, all his haughty foes! The power of God will gloriously appear in dashing to pieces his enemies as a potter’s vessel... To see the majesty, and greatness, and terribleness of God, appearing in the destruction of his enemies, will cause the saints to rejoice; and when they shall see how great and terrible a being God is, how will they prize his favour! how will they rejoice that they are the objects of his love! how will they praise him the more joyfully, that, he should choose them to be his children, and to live in the enjoyment of him! [Delighting a little much in the destruction of others!?!]
It will occasion rejoicing in them, as they will have the greater sense of their own happiness, by seeing the contrary misery... When the saints in glory, therefore, shall see the doleful state of the damned, how will this heighten their sense of the blessedness of their own state, so exceedingly different from it! When they shall see how miserable others of their fellow-creatures are, who were naturally in the same circumstances with themselves; when they shall see the smoke of their torment, and the raging of the flames of their burning, and hear their dolorous shrieks and cries, and consider that they in the mean time are in the most blissful state, and shall surely be in it to all eternity; how will they rejoice!
This will give them a joyful sense of the grace and love of God to them, because hereby they will see how great a benefit they have by it. When they shall see the dreadful miseries of the damned, and consider that they deserved the same misery, and that it was sovereign grace, and nothing else, which made them so much to differ from the damned, that, if it had not been for that, they would have been in the same condition: but that God from all eternity was pleased to set his love upon them, that Christ hath laid down his life for them, and hath made them thus gloriously happy for ever, O how will they admire that dying love of Christ, which has redeemed them from so great a misery, and purchased for them so great happiness, and has so distinguished them from others of their fellow-creatures! How joyfully will they sing to God and the Lamb, when they behold this!"
