Exposing Calvinism: The "plans of the Lord"/Child Sacrifice

In the comment section of Soteriology 101's post "Frustrated by the state of the world?", I pointed out that when a Calvinist says God "ordains" something, they mean that He "preplans/causes/controls" it.


The Calvinist Roland replied:

No, Heather, ... Calvinists read what the Bible says about God, believe what the Bible says about God, and teach what the Bible says about God.  It’s really not that difficult.  Also, ordained in Calvinism does not have the same meaning as “preplanned/caused/controlled.”

Blessed are those you choose and bring near to live in your courts. We are filled with the good things of your house, of your holy temple.  Psalm 65:4

"God chooses, God brings near" is a clear reading of Scripture.

But the plans of the Lord stand firm forever, the purposes of his heart through all generations.  Psalm 33:11

Our God is in heaven, he does whatever pleases him.  Psalm 115:3

The Lord does whatever pleases him, in heaven and on earth, in the seas and all their depths.  Psalm 135:6

No one can deliver out of my hand, When I act, who can reverse it?  Isaiah 43:13

... And Isaiah 10 doesn’t say God permits; it says God sends, gives, uses Assyria as a rod of anger, etc.



I replied to Roland:

Roland says: “Also, ordained in Calvinism does not have the same meaning as “preplanned/caused/controlled.”

In practice, it does.  Or maybe you’re saying that Calvinism’s god does not preplan, cause, control all things?

And yes, Psalm 33:11 says that the plans of the Lord stand firm forever.  But Psalm 33:10 says “The Lord foils the plans of the nations…”  If Calvinism is true that God controls everything in our hearts/wills/minds, then it would mean that God Himself puts the plans of the nations into the people’s heads, which means that they are really HIS plans, which means that He is foiling HIS OWN PLANS.  That is so nonsensical.  And self-defeating.  And then what are we to make of “the plans of the Lord stand firm forever”?  How can God’s plans stand firm forever if He foils His own plans!?!  If Calvinism is true, then we’re supposed to believe that God puts plans that He Himself made up into people’s heads … and then He foils them because of a different plan He had … and yet “His plans will stand forever”!?!  Which plans are those?  The plans He put into their heads?  His plans to foil them?  His new plan about what He’ll do with the foiled plans?  It’s so stupid!  The only right and logical way to understand this is that man makes up his own mind but that God can thwart what man decides – NOT that God controls what’s in man’s mind/will/heart.  This is the only way to make sense of how God can foil man’s plans but that His plans stand forever.

Maybe Calvinists are okay with singling out verses that say what they want, but I’d rather take Scripture as a whole!

And just because God plans things doesn’t mean everything was planned.  Just because all monkeys are animals doesn’t mean all animals are monkeys.  (Or are they, Roland?)

Same with Psalm 115:3 and 135:6, about God doing what He pleases.  Just because He does things He pleases doesn’t mean that everything that happens is because He was pleased to cause it.  Same with Isaiah 43:13, about no one being able to reverse God’s actions.  Just because no one can reverse an action He has done doesn’t mean He causes everything that happens.  And just because God sends/uses Assyria to discipline Israel doesn’t mean He caused Assyria to be wicked and to choose to do wicked things.  It just means He chose to work their wicked choices into His plans.

Calvinists add things to Scripture that aren’t there.

And I love how Calvinists build their theology on the verses Roland listed, but they ignore verses like these:

Hosea 8:4: “They set up kings without my consent; they choose princes without my approval.”

Isaiah 30:1: “Woe to the obstinate children,” declares the Lord, “to those who carry out plans that are not mine.”

Jeremiah 19:4-5, about the child sacrifice being done, God says it was “something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind.”

1 Kings 20:42: “This is what the Lord says, ‘You have set free a man I had determined should die.'”

Acts 14:16: “In the past, [God] let all nations go their own way.”

Matthew 23:37: “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem … how often I have longed to gather your children together … but you were not willing.”

Isaiah 65:12: “You did evil in my sight and chose what displeases me.”  (If God causes everything to happen because it pleases Him then how can He also cause something that displeases Him?)

Ezekiel 13:22 (KJV): "Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad ..."  And the CSB version puts it this way: "Because you have disheartened the righteous person with lies (when I intended no distress)..."  (In Calvinism, God would be the one who preplanned and ultimately caused people to lie to the righteous people.  He would have preplanned/intended to cause the righteous people to be disheartened, contradicting His claim that He never intended to do that.  And so either God lies or Calvinism lies.  Which one do you think it is?)

And all those verses (except Acts) are things God Himself says, not just something written about God in the Psalms.  And yet Calvinists ignore these verses in favor of the Psalms.

If Calvinists want to pick and choose a few “Calvinist-sounding” verses to build their theology on and if they want to add things the verses don’t say, then that’s their choice.  But I’d rather take Scripture as a whole and stick to what it says.



Rhutchin (a strong Calvinist) replies to the Jeremiah verse: “... Jeremiah can be read, 'something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind [to command or mention].'”



I reply:

And I agree.  It never entered God’s mind to command child sacrifice.  But Calvinists would have to say that it never entered His mind to command it, but that He did irresistibly decree it anyway.  That He didn’t command them to sacrifice their children, but He did predestine it and cause it to happen.  And so, Calvinists would say that the people can be held accountable for doing something God said not to do even though He predestined/caused them break His command.  (So they disobey God’s spoken command in obedience to His hidden decree!  Isn’t that really just a different form of obedience?)  And that’s the kind of god Calvinists love, honor, worship, and serve!

(I'll quote the replies that came after this comment in the next "Exposing Calvinism" post.)

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