For Alana L (foreknowing vs predetermining)

I just watched Jordan Hatfield's interview with Alana L, about her leaving Calvinism, and I totally recommend it.  It's really good.  (And I really appreciate the graciousness these two display.)  

And I'm writing this because I wanted to say something to her, but I can't find an email address for her and I don't leave comments on YouTube videos.  (And so I'm hoping that someone can eventually share this with her.  Here's her YouTube channel.)

First of all, Alana, I'm so glad you (and Jordan) are speaking out against Calvinism.  We need all the voices we can get.  There are so many good things you said.  And I totally get what you said about how disagreeing with Calvinism leads to communication issues with other people at church, and how it ends up making you pull back, feeling like you have to go through it alone.  

I understand.  My husband and I were one of the only ones (the only ones?) pushing back against the Calvinism in our church.  And it made it really hard to want to talk to others, especially when they wouldn't want to hear the things that were burning in my heart (and we also feared disturbing other people's faith and their enjoyment of the church).  It makes for a very lonely journey and battle.  

(Thankfully, I had one good friend I could talk to openly about it, that I could vent to.  She listened and agreed.  And bittersweetly, I took her down with me.  She came to disagree with Calvinism, too, and doesn't attend the church now.  But even though it's been difficult and lonely, she's thankful that she took the red pill, too.)


Anyway, here's why I'm writing this for you, Alana... At the 1-hour-4-minute-mark, you said that you have a friend who is convinced that if God knows all things then it means He determined all things (basically, if God foreknew it, it's because He predetermined/preplanned it), and you said that you don't know which Scriptures might challenge that belief for her.  You may have already shared these with her, but I thought I'd recommend some verses that might get her thinking, in case you haven't noticed them yet:


1. In 1 Samuel 23:12-13, David asks the Lord if the people of the town, Keilah, will hand him over to Saul, who is pursuing him to kill him.  And God says that if he stays in that town, they will hand him over to Saul.  Armed with this foreknowledge of what will happen, David leaves.  So this thing that God foreknew would happen – that the townspeople would hand David over to Saul – never happened.  

But if foreknowing means "predetermining" and if predetermining means that it's destined to happen, then how could God foreknow/predetermine something that didn't happen?  And did God foreknow/predetermine both that David would be handed over to Saul (what God said would happen) and that David wasn't handed over to Saul (what actually happened)?  And if God really predetermined that David would leave and not be handed over, then how could God say that something different would have happened?  Is God lying, or does Calvinism understand it wrong?


2. In 1 Samuel 13:13, Samuel tells Saul that if Saul had kept God's commands, then God would have established Saul's kingdom permanently.

If Calvinism is true that God preplans/causes all that happens, then He preplanned/caused that Saul would disobey and lose the kingdom (because that's what happened) and so it would be a lie to say that something different could have, would have, happened, that there was an alternative path that hinged on Saul's choice.

Was Samuel and God lying?  Or is Calvinism not true?

Calvinists will "solve" this problem by saying something like "God had two decrees (two Wills): one Will was that Saul obeyed and got the kingdom, but the other was that Saul disobeyed and lost the kingdom."  

They'll say that God decreed that His decree didn't happen.  That He commanded Saul to disobey His command.  

 

This is how Calvinists deal with Bible verses like this.  Very Alice-in-Wonderlandy!  Very nonsensical!

Can they not see how messed-up this is, and what it does to God's character and Word?  Can they not see how untrustworthy it makes Him when they present a God who says things He doesn't mean and means things He doesn't say, when He commands things He doesn't really want and causes people to break His commands, etc.?  And then which decree is His real decree: the spoken one (the thing He says) or the hidden one (the opposite thing He causes)?  And how then can we trust any decree (command) God gives us if He might really want us to do the opposite?  And why should we put any effort into obeying His decrees if He's just gonna cause us to do whatever He wants anyway, even causing us to do the opposite of what He said He wanted us to do?

Calvinism destroys God's character, His Word, His trustworthiness.  And if you don't have a trustworthy God, you don't have a God worth worshipping, worth loving!  

How can Calvinists not see this!?! 


3.  In Hosea 8:4, God says, "They set up kings without my consent; they choose princes without my approval." If God foreknew/predetermined that these people would be kings, then He's lying when He says He didn't set it up. 


4. In Jeremiah 19:5, God says, "They have built the high places to Baal to burn their sons in the fire as offerings to Baal - something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind." If God foreknew/predetermined that these people sacrificed their children, then He's lying when He says He didn't have anything to do with it.


5. Isaiah 30:1: "Woe to the obstinate children," declares the Lord, "to those who carry out plans that are not mine..."  If He foreknew/predetermined what the "obstinate children" did, then He's lying when He says the plans weren't His.


6. Acts 14:16: "In the past, he [God] let nations go their own way."  What does "going their own way" mean if God really predetermined what they did?  If every way is God's way, then there would be no "going their own way."


7. 1 Kings 20:42 says, "He said to the king, 'This is what the Lord says: 'You have set free a man I had determined should die.''" If everything that happens is because God foreknew/predetermined it, then how could God determine something that didn't happen?  What kind of God predetermines that people don't do what He predetermined?  Does this make any sense?  How "sovereign" can [Calvinism's] God be if the thing He predetermined to happen didn't happen?  And then which one was His true Will: kill the man or don't kill the man?  If it's "kill the man," then He caused the people to not do His Will (He willed that His Will didn't get done).  But if it's "don't kill the man," then He gave a command at first to put the man to death that He didn't really mean.  Either way, it makes Him untrustworthy and double-minded, working against Himself and His own decrees/plans.


8.  Exodus 13:17: "When Pharaoh let the people go, God did not lead them on the road through the Philistine country.  For God said 'If they face war, they might change their minds and return to Egypt."  I probably don't even have to spell it out by this point, but... if foreknowing means predetermining, then the fact that God foreknew the people would turn back means He predetermined the people would turn back, which means that the people would have had to turn back.  But they didn't.  What God foreknew didn't happen, contradicting the Calvinist idea that foreknowing means predetermining and that everything that happens was preplanned by God.


Alana, I'm sure you probably already noticed all these passages in the Bible, but I thought I'd try to help you find verses to share with your friend, in case any of them might help wake your friend up.  Maybe it will help having it come from someone else.  

But of course, if a Calvinist doesn't want to see the errors of Calvinism, then nothing anyone says will convince them otherwise.  (I could understand Calvinists writing off one of these Bible passages that contradict Calvinism, but there are many of them all throughout the Bible, making it a lot harder to ignore it or explain it all away.)

Thank you, Alana (and Jordan), for your efforts to stand up against Calvinism and for the sacrifices you've made to do it.  There are a lot of people that really appreciate it and benefit from it.  God bless!

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