A Not-So-Imaginary Conversation with a Calvinist
(Taken from the post "Calvinism 101: 'Free-Will Choice' is not really 'Free-Will' or 'Choice'")
Calvinists will do their best to hide what they really believe, to make you think they are saying the same thing you are. They will agree with you on one level, while hiding the fact that they really believe in a secondary level which contradicts that first level. (But they've been so well-trained in their pat answers that they might not even realize they're doing it. They truly think they are being biblical and making sense, not being deceptive or contradictory.) And they rely on your ignorance to give them time to subtly slip their Calvinism in, to stealthily reel you into Calvinism without you realizing it. (I have read about Calvinist pastors/Sunday School teachers bragging about how they subtly maneuvered the non-Calvinist people into Calvinism without them knowing it.)
And if they can convince you that they are saying the same thing you are and using words the same way you do ... if you buy into their definitions of things like depraved, dead, sovereign, regeneration, faith, grace, etc. ... if you let them convince you that there's a deeper, "hidden" layer of meaning under what the Bible plainly says (a layer that they have to teach you to see) ... if you don't question them deeply to expose what they really mean ... if you don't research the verses they use, comparing it all to what the Bible plainly says, then they've already got you beat!
You want to see what a conversation with a Calvinist might be like?
Read this not-so-imaginary one.
[FYI: I recently revised it. And it's a lot longer. So grab a cup of tea or coffee, and enjoy this circuitous, convoluted journey into the Alice-in-Wonderlandy mind of the Calvinist. And usually they will refer to various Calvinist theologians - their "giants of the faith" - and Calvinist historical confessions and many Bible verses taken out of context to support their viewpoint. But I left all that out because I just wanted to give you a sense of how deceptive they are and how they try to manipulate you through things like shaming you if you disagree, through deflection from hard questions and from their contradictions, through unbiblical ideas (such as that "God decrees" is the same as "God predestines/causes" and that faith is a thing God injects into people to cause them to believe), and through "false dichotomies" where they force you to choose between an absurd, unbiblical option and the Calvinist option, leaving out the biblical option from the start, etc. They have many, very-cult-like ways of trapping people, while not realizing that's what they're doing. Those who are trapped in a cult can't see that they're in a cult.]
Me: Do you believe God loves the world and that Jesus died for all people?
Calvinist: Absolutely!
Me: So then can anyone believe in Jesus and be saved?
Calvinist: Oh, yes. Anyone can believe and be saved, if they want to. Everyone who desires to be saved will be saved.
Me: But doesn't Calvinism teach that God forces people to either believe in Him or to reject Him?
Calvinist: Of course not! People either believe in God or reject Him because that's what they want to do. He doesn't force anyone to do anything. They choose to do what they want to do.
Me: So you believe in choice then? In free will?
Calvinist: Oh, yes. We all freely choose to do what we want to do, according to our natures.
Me: So then do we all have the chance, the ability, to believe in Jesus?
Calvinist: Well, it takes faith to believe, right? So if you don't have faith in something, you can't believe in it, can you?
Me: So, according to Calvinism, faith comes before believing in Jesus? Can anyone have faith?
Calvinist: Yes, you need faith to believe. And anyone can have faith if God elected them and gives them faith.
Me: But ... can anyone have faith? Any person out there, not just the elect?
Calvinist: Well, God is sovereign, and so He decides who to give faith to and who to withhold it from. And if He doesn't give you faith (the non-elect), you can't create faith in yourself. Unless you think people can save themselves. Does God save us or do we save ourselves? Are we in control or is God?
Me: But earlier you said anyone can believe. And now you're saying the non-elect can't. So which is it? If God doesn't give you faith, can you still believe in Jesus, if you want to?
Calvinist: If you don't have faith, you can't believe. You won't even want to believe. Faith is a gift [in Calvinism*], and God gives it to whomever He wants to, to those He loves and has chosen for salvation.
Me: But I thought you said that God loves all people and that Jesus died for all people and that anyone can believe in Jesus.
Calvinist: No, I said that God loves the world. He loves the elected people from all over the world, all kinds of people, but not all individual people. Well, I mean, He does love all people, but He loves them differently. He loves the elect by saving them from hell, and He loves the non-elect by caring for their needs while they're on earth. And yes, Jesus died for all people, but it means He died for all of His people. All those who will believe. The elect. You must be a universalist, that's what you are - saying that all people will go to heaven. But the Bible says all people won't go to heaven, so Jesus couldn't have died for all people. And why would He die for those predestined to reject Him anyway? That would be a waste of His blood and make His death ineffective. His blood is sufficient for everyone (it's enough to cover all men's sins) but it's efficient to save only the elect (it's only applied to the elect). And I said that anyone can be saved - anyone can believe in Jesus - if they want to, if that's what they desire. But only the elect will desire to be saved because only regenerated people will want to be saved. The non-elect will never desire to be saved because they are totally-depraved, unrepentant, unregenerated sinners. And totally-depraved, unrepentant, unregenerated sinners don't want God. They will always want to sin and so they can only choose to sin. Basically, anyone can believe in Jesus, if God regenerates their nature and gives them faith to believe.
Me: I'm not a universalist. I'm not saying that "Jesus died for all people" means that all people will go to heaven. I'm saying that Jesus's death gives all people the option to go to heaven, that it offers everyone the gift of eternal life, but we have to choose to either accept it or reject it. And so it's up to us if we are saved or not. But in Calvinism, who determines if we are saved or not, if we are elect or non-elect, if we are regenerated or not?
Calvinist: God does. Because He is sovereign. Or do you think you're sovereign?
Me: So then whose fault is it when we sin and reject God and go to hell? If God decides who's regenerated and who's not and we can't be saved without being regenerated (according to Calvinism), doesn't that mean it's His fault that people sin and reject Him and go to hell, because He didn't regenerate them?
Calvinist: No, of course not. You don't understand Calvinism. God ordains sin but He is not the author of sin. People choose to sin and reject God because that's what they wanted to do. And so they deserve their punishment.
Me: Doesn't ordaining sin, in Calvinism, basically mean that God preplanned it, causes it, and controls it, and that the sinner couldn't do anything differently. And so then how can you say that God "ordains" sin but is not the author of sin?
Calvinist: There are two sources of sin. On one level, God ultimately decrees [read: predestines/causes] everything that happens, even sin, for His purposes and glory. And He works out all circumstances to accomplish what He decreed. Everything that happens is because He decreed it. But on a secondary level, humans choose to do what God decreed. We choose it because we want to do it, because of the desires in our natures. And so He doesn't have to force us to sin because we do it willingly, because of the desires of our nature. We can't change our natures (only God can do that), and so we have to obey the desires of our natures, which means we can only do - and will only do - what God predetermined we'd do. We can't choose anything else because we can't desire anything else other than what God predetermined we'd desire. But since we wanted to do it and chose to do it (on one level), He can hold us accountable for it. It's a mystery that we don't and can't understand, and so we just have to accept it.
Me: But isn't that just basically saying that people are simply robots, forced to do what God preprogrammed them to do?
Calvinist: Of course Calvinists don't say we're robots. That's ridiculous! A false accusation!
Me: But you just said that we have to do - and can only do - what God predetermined we'd do. That sounds like a robot to me - only able to do what the programmer preprogrammed it to do. And then what about when people disobey His commands? If everything God decrees has to happen, how can we disobey His commands/decrees? Doesn't that mean He is causing people to break His own commands and that He decrees things He wants us to disobey?
Calvinist: Well, God can decree that we disobey His decrees, if that's what brings Him more glory and if it fits His plans. And like I said: God ordains the sin but is not the author of sin. Even though He decrees/ordains the sin, we are still responsible for it. I know it's confusing and hard to accept emotionally. It confused me and made me feel bad for a long time too. It's like an itchy sweater that's hard to get used to. But if you stick with it and read books by MacArthur and Sproul and Grudem, then you'll come to accept it. It's just our human emotions and human logic that get in the way because we don't like the way it sounds. It sounds unfair. But our human emotions and logic can't be used to determine what's biblically true. That's putting ourselves above God. And so we need to put our pride aside and humbly accept these things, even if we don't like it or understand it, because that's what it means to be humble like a child.
Me: I don't think the "humble like a child" verse means accepting, without question, things that sound unbiblical or damaging to God's character. Anyway, you said that faith is a gift. Doesn't the Bible say that eternal life is the gift, that salvation is the gift we can all accept by faith, not that faith is the "gift" that God forces only on some people.
Calvinist: Can a totally-depraved person create faith in themselves? Of course not! Mankind is so depraved that there is nothing good in us that makes us want God or think about God or seek God. Before regeneration, we are dead in sin. You'd know that if you didn't cut that verse out of your Bible. Can a dead body get up and do anything on their own? No, because it's dead. And like a dead body that can't do anything, we can't do anything on our own, not even want God or seek God or have faith in God, unless God makes it possible. That's why it has to be a gift from God. And He doesn't have to force it on the elect because they want to have faith because they've been regenerated.
Me: But if God won't give the non-elect faith to believe, doesn't that make God responsible for their unbelief, for them being in hell? And then isn't it unfair for Him to punish them for something they didn't deserve, that they had no control over, that He made them do?
Calvinist: Since the non-elect don't get saving faith, they will remain dead in sin. They will stay a slave to sin. So God doesn't make anyone sin or reject Him. Sinners want to sin and reject God, according to their natures. So unregenerated people are just doing what comes naturally to them, freely choosing to sin and reject God. Because that's what unregenerated sinners will always want to do. And so God is exercising justice when He punishes them for it, because they chose what they wanted to do. No one deserves to go to heaven anyway. We all deserve hell. God doesn't owe anyone eternal life. Do you think He owes you eternal life? Are you so good and righteous on your own that you somehow earned your salvation? God gets to decide who gets saved and who doesn't, who gets faith and who doesn't, because He is the sovereign God and we are not. And it is not unfair for Him to punish the non-elect because "fairness" would be putting us all in hell - because we are all sinners who deserve hell. But God, out of His abundant love and grace, didn't want all people to go to hell, so He graciously chose to save some people. Imagine there are 100 people on death row for murder. And God decides to have mercy on 10 of them, to set them free, even though they don't deserve it. God has a right to have mercy on whomever He wants to. But since none of them deserved mercy, since they all deserved death, it was not unfair for Him to save some but to pass over the other 90 men, allowing them to face the penalty for their crimes. Because that's what they all deserved: death. It's not unfair for God to choose to have mercy on some sinners but to pass over the rest, to let the non-elect go to hell for their sins, because that's what we all deserve for our sins anyway. God is actually being very loving and gracious to save any of us, when no one deserves to be saved.
Me: Yeah, but in Calvinism, isn't God the reason for them being on death row in the first place, because He predestined their crimes and caused them to do it. How is that justice then? They're not paying for their crimes, but for crimes God made them do. And if unregenerated, non-elect people only have one option - to reject God - and so they have to choose that option, how is that "freely choosing," when there is no other choice available to them? How is that NOT God "forcing" them to be a sinner who rejects Him?
Calvinist: Unregenerated sinners are slaves to their sin-nature, to their sinful desires, which is another verse you refuse to believe. And so unregenerated sinners freely choose what they want to do, according to their sin-nature. And so God doesn't have to force them to sin and to reject Him because that's already what unregenerated people will naturally want to do. Always. And that's why they deserve their punishment, because they did what they wanted to do.
Me: But who determined that they would have the sin-nature in the first place, a sin-nature that has only sinful desires?
Calvinist: God ordains all things for His purposes and glory. He has mercy on whomever He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whomever He wants to harden. He is the Potter and we are the clay, and He does whatever He wants with us for His glory. Do you think God doesn't deserve glory? That He doesn't have a right to get more glory for Himself however He wants to?
Me: Um, okay. So you're saying the non-elect can never believe in Jesus because they will never want to believe in Him because God gave them the sin-nature that makes them only, always, want to reject Him. And yet you say God is abundantly gracious and loving. How can predestining most people to hell and then giving them a sin-nature that can only reject Him so that they go to hell, just like He predestined, be considered gracious or loving?
Calvinist: God doesn't "give" them the sin-nature. That's the nature we all start out with. So He doesn't force them to have the sin-nature and sinful desires; He just doesn't give them the regenerated nature that He gives to the elect. He doesn't predestine them for hell or cause them to go to hell; He just didn't predestine them for heaven. He passes over them, choosing to not regenerate them, and they go to hell by default. And then the elect can see how gracious and loving He is to the elect, because He chose to give them eternal life that they didn't deserve. God's grace and love for the elect shine more brightly when compared to His justice and wrath towards sin, towards the non-elect. If there were no sinners to punish, then God would have never been able to show His full attributes, like His justice and wrath, and we would never have seen how great His love and grace is towards the elect.
Me: So God needed sinners to be fully God? So He wasn't fully God before mankind came along and sinned?
Calvinist: Of course He was always fully God, but He decided that having sin was better for His glory. We are mere humans and can't understand everything. And it's pride that makes us want to understand everything, to think we can peer into the mysteries that God reserves for Himself. So we don't have to know how predestination works or God's reasons for what He does; we just have to humbly accept it as truth and to let God be God.
Me: But if the non-elect could never choose to believe in Him anyway, then why does He command them to believe in Him and to obey Him, when He made it impossible for them to do it? Isn't that just fake commands then, and a fake offer of salvation?
Calvinist: It is real commands, but God commands things He knows we can never do. He commands us to be holy knowing we can never be perfectly holy, right!?! And it's a real offer of salvation, it's just that the non-elect can't accept it. Because they don't want to. Because they don't have faith. But God commands them to believe and obey so that they would be guilty of sin when they broke His commands, and then He could demonstrate His justice and wrath - and get glory for it - by punishing them for their sins.
Me: What!?! How can you really call that "justice" if God is punishing them for doing what He predestined them to do, what He caused them to do? And yes, God commands people to be holy, but He doesn't actively prevent us from being holy. He doesn't command holiness but then cause us to do the opposite. And so this is different from Calvinism, which teaches that God commands the non-elect to repent and believe in Him but then He actively prevents them from believing, causing them to reject Him. (And besides, "holy" doesn't mean being perfect; it means "otherness, being set apart," and this is something we can do as Christians.)
Calvinist: You're deliberately trying to twist my words and misrepresent my beliefs. He doesn't cause them to sin; He just allows them to carry out the sinful desires that are already in their hearts, that come with their sin-nature. Besides, God gets to decide what real justice is, not us. And who are you, O man, to talk back to Him anyway? He is the Potter and we are the clay, and so He has the right to do whatever He wants with us for His glory. Humble Christians don't question Him.
Me: But doesn't the Bible say that God wants all men to be saved, that He doesn't want anyone to perish? If Calvinism is true, then God actually wants most men to perish, which contradicts the Bible.
Calvinist: God does want all men to be saved. He doesn't like it that anyone goes to hell. But He also wants to show off His justice against sin, to be worshipped for it. Humans are not God's top priority. Our salvation is not His main focus. His glory is. And so He does what's best for His glory. That's why He created us, to glorify Him, and if that means predestining the non-elect to hell, then that's what has to happen. You see, God has two wills: a revealed one that wants all men to be saved and a deeper one that wants glory for His justice. And so even if it makes Him sad - on one level - that people are in hell, He still predestined it anyway because of His deeper will, because it's best for His glory.
Me: But if God predestines most people to hell, isn't He just lying then when He says He wants all people to be saved, that He wills that no one perishes, and when He talks like salvation is available to all, that Jesus died for all, and that anyone can be saved if they would just believe? How can we trust a God that says one thing but means another? And if God doesn't regenerate someone, doesn't that mean it was His choice that they have the "sin nature" that forces them to want to sin and choose to sin, which would make God the real cause of...
Calvinist: I'm done talking to you now. If you're just gonna keep choosing to twist my words and create strawman arguments and cut verses out of your Bible, then I can't talk to you. Come back when you're ready to really listen and learn.
Me: But if God predestined me - for His glory - to twist your words and create strawman arguments and to oppose Calvinism, then how can I choose to ...
Calvinist: Good-bye, you Pelagian!
I'm not kidding, this is what conversations with them are like (except they throw in a lot of names/quotes from Calvinist authors and lots of Bible verses - taken out of context - thinking it triumphantly proves their case).
[If you're interested, see "Is Faith a Gift God Gives (forces on) Us?"]
When it comes to trying to find out what Calvinists really believe, remember this simple rule: Dig! And keep digging, way past what they first tell you. Eventually they will contradict themselves, revealing a hidden layer of beliefs that is far different from what they first told you. And do not let them convince you that you are questioning God when you question Calvinism (an attempt to stop you from digging). We are not questioning God when we question Calvinism. We are questioning their terrible, philosophical, self-contradicting theology which alters God's Word and destroys His character!
You MUST look for the "hidden layers" that are underneath what they say, the things they really mean but that they hide under more acceptable-sounding, biblical-sounding ideas. (Never take anything they say at face-value. The more probing questions you ask, the more their deception and the holes in their theology will be exposed.)
You MUST compare it all to what the Bible plainly says. (Which do you really think is the more accurate one: What God plainly says … or what the Calvinist tells you God meant to say? Does God mean what He says or not? Does God say what He means or not?)
And you MUST take Calvinist teachings to their logical and natural conclusions to see how wrong they are, how damaging it is to God's Word and God's character.
