Exposing Calvinism: The last Soteriology 101 comments
Here are some last comments from Calvinists and non-Calvinists that I will repost from the Soteriology 101 post "Frustrated by the state of the world?" (I made minor corrections for better grammar/clarity):
Roland (Calvinist) said:
A non-elect individual could have non-saving faith in God but not saving faith or faith that leads to repentance…
And in another place, Roland said: … there is not one prominent Calvinist who is teaching that "a sinner cannot receive the gift of faith because ‘not one single impulse can come to pass within a human being’s brain unless Calvin’s God specifically decrees it [as non-Calvinists say Calvinism teaches]’."
My reply:
A Calvinist would have to say that ultimately God is the determining factor/cause in why the non-elect are not saved, right? It was His decision. His actions. But how does He ensure that the non-elect do not get saved? Is it just by not offering them the gift of faith [something Roland said]? Or does He do something to their thinking/brains that keeps them from wanting to be saved?
Rhutchin (Calvinist) responds:
Paul explains, “If our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ,…”
[My note: Ahh, but do they not believe (do they perish) because the gospel is veiled to them or is the gospel veiled to them because they refuse to believe?
Romans 1:21, 24-25: "For although they knew God, they neither glorified him nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.... Therefore, God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts ... They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped and served created things rather than the Creator...."
2 Timothy 4: 3-4: “For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.”
Romans 2:5: "But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath against yourself..."
Calvinists say that God veils the gospel (through Satan) to keep the non-elect from believing, and that He removes the veil from the elect so that they can/will turn to Him and believe.
But the Bible says that when we turn to Him - after we turn to Him - the veil is removed:
2 Corinthians 3:16: "But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away."
It's not that we don't turn to Christ because the Gospel is veiled to us, that we can't believe because God deliberately keeps us blind. It's that the Gospel is veiled because we don't turn to Christ, that because we reject Him and His truth, we are unable to understand spiritual truths. But it will be unveiled for anyone who does turn to Him (and we all can). The choice is ours: Turn to Him and He will make it clear, or reject Him and stay blind.
"But they were broken off because of unbelief ... And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in ..." (Romans 11:20,23)
And technically, when read in context, the "veil" (2 Corinthians 4:3) that Rutchin referred to is about the fact that the Gospel message (salvation through faith in Jesus) is veiled to the Jews when they read the old covenant in the Old Testament (2 Corinthians 3:14). Paul is saying that the truth of salvation in Jesus is not in the Old Testament, which the Jews adhere to (the Law), that the new covenant cannot be understood by reading the old covenant. And that's when Paul says "but whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away." Calvinists use this verse to say that the non-elect have no ability to believe in Jesus because God caused the Gospel to be veiled so that they wouldn't believe. But that's not what it's about when kept in context (something Calvinists are terrible at doing). It's that the Jews can't find the truth of salvation through Christ if all they keep reading/believing/following is the old covenant. But if they will willingly turn to Jesus, they will find the truth of salvation through Jesus. Always research the verses Calvinists use to support their Calvinism, to see what the verses really say in context. If you do, you'll see just how much they have to twist the Bible to make it fit their Calvinism.]
Pastor Loz (non-Calvinist) replies:
No Calvinist has ever been able to explain why it is necessary for the god of this world to blind and harden those who are already (according to Calvinism) totally blind, hardened spiritual corpses from birth. Or why it was necessary for Jesus to speak in parables so that totally blind, non-comprehending spiritual corpses would not understand.
Rhutchin replies:
As 2 Corinthians 4 tells us it is “…to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ,…” People without faith are Totally Depraved – totally blind, hardened spiritual corpses from birth. The gospel is the means God uses to convey faith to people thus removing Total Depravity. Satan, the god of this world, as Peter is as describes, “Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.” The freedom of Satan is by God’s decree to blind the reprobate, thereby preventing faith from being conveyed to people as they come under the preaching of the gospel. As Dr Flowers describes it, this may be for judicial hardening, but whatever the reason, it explains why two people can physically hear the gospel but only one ends up with faith.
[My note: Calvinists cannot comprehend that people can/do choose reject the Gospel (the offer of salvation) on their own. They believe that if salvation is offered to someone, that person WILL accept it. And so if someone isn’t saved, it couldn’t possibly be because they rejected a legitimate offer of salvation; it MUST BE that they weren’t truly offered salvation to begin with, that it wasn’t available to them because God predestined them for hell, that God caused them to not believe. Since they are locked in their wrong Calvinist concepts of total depravity (total inability) and that God's sovereignty means He must actively control everything that happens, that's the only reason they could come up with for why one person accepts the Gospel and one doesn't.]
Pastor Loz says:
And thus you failed to answer it too. If they are ALREADY totally blind FROM BIRTH, born into that unchangeably pre-determined spiritual condition, as you believe, then there is NO NEED to blind them FURTHER, in order to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel. A TOTALLY BLIND spiritual corpse WILL NOT SEE THE LIGHT OF THE GOSPEL as things already stand. They do not require any further hardening. They are already 100% blind. There is no such thing as 101% blind, 110% blind…
Rhutchin replies:
The gospel has the power to overcome the blindness of Total Depravity. Thus, 2 Corinthians says, “…to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ,…” If Satan does not blind a person, then the person will see the light of the gospel.
Br.d. (non-Calvinist) replies to Rhutchin:
That is funny, isn’t it!!!
Calvinism is so totally DOUBLE-MINDED!!
And the Calvinist brain is so totally cemented inside that cocoon of DOUBLE-MINDEDNESS that it has absolutely ZERO discernment!
The thinking patterns of the Calvinist brain is reduced to a very tiny library of DOUBLE-SPEAK talking-points
And we know this is the case – because they repeat those talking-points over and over non-stop like a broken record.
Calvinism is a very serious form of mental entrenchment!
I chime in:
Rhutchin said: “If Satan does not blind a person, then the person will see the light of the gospel.”
So he is saying that the default, without-interference ending for the “totally depraved/unregenerated” person would be to see the light of the gospel!?! That the totally-depraved person’s condition would lead them, by default, to believe the gospel, if it were not for Satan interfering!?!
I agree with BR.D.: That’s too funny! A total contradiction to and denial of what Calvinism’s total depravity/total inability is!
[In another comment on that same post, Rhutchin said "Calvinists say that people without faith are totally depraved, governed by their selfish, covetous, and prideful natures [that Calvi-god forced them to have] and because of this, they can only choose to sin..." So on the one hand, "totally depraved" people can only choose to sin, but on the other hand, "totally depraved" people would inevitably believe the Gospel if Satan didn't blind them!?! Calvinists do this all the time - talking out of both sides of their mouths - and they wonder why we don't trust what they say or want to debate them!
Basically, according to Rhutchin here, all people would, by default, believe and be saved. But God actively prevents that from happening by sending Satan to blind those He predestined to hell. So Calvi-god doesn't just passively let the non-elect go to hell by simply "passing over them/refusing to regenerate them" (as Calvinists usually say, to downplay Calvi-god's responsibility for people being in hell), but he actively interferes to stop them from believing, as they would have inevitably done if they were left alone, if Calvi-god didn't send Satan to blind them. Calvinists cannot see the tangled web of contradictions and double-speak they weave. Instead, they simply slap on another verse taken out of context and go, "There! Problem solved. I win." Not realizing they just dug their hole deeper.]
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Roland replies to something I said earlier:
Heather says: "A Calvinist would have to say that ultimately God is the determining factor/cause in why the non-elect are not saved, right? It was His decision. His actions."
Roland replies: Yes, God is the determining factor/cause of why the non-elect are not saved. He never decreed them to be part of the elect, then they will not be part of the elect.
Heather says: "But how does He ensure that the non-elect do not get saved?"
Roland replies: The non-elect are not saved because God has not decreed for them to be saved. God works all things after the counsel of His own will, Ephesians 1:11. [My note: When Calvinists read about God "working things" together, into His plans, they assume it means "preplanning/causes all things that happen."] This includes the salvation of the elect. If God is not working for a person to be saved, they will never be saved. I don’t see anywhere in Scripture where a “non-elect” person is saved. The elect are brought to salvation; the non-elect are never brought, because if they were, then they would be part of the elect. [My note: Calvinists start with a wrong understanding of "election" - thinking that it's about God choosing who goes to hell and who goes to heaven - and so they wrongly understand how salvation happens. In the Bible, "election" is about believers (and anyone can believe) being chosen for service to God, given responsibilities; it's not about certain sinners being chosen for salvation.]
Heather says: "Is it just by not offering them the gift of faith?"
Roland replies: I do believe that faith is a gift but I don’t believe that God offers it to all men. I don’t believe He offers it to any, it is given as a gift that Christ purchased on the Cross as all that is needed for the elect to be saved. It is part of the accomplishment of redemption by Christ for His elect.
[My note: When Roland says "I don't believe that God offers it to any, it is given..." he means salvation isn't "offered" to people, but that it's forced on the elect as a "gift" they cannot refuse. And this comes from the Calvinist misinterpretation of Eph. 2:8-9: “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast.”
Many Christians, at one point or another, have assumed that faith is the "gift" in this passage, and so since the gift is given by God, it must mean that if you don't get it then you can't believe and be saved. BUT ... faith is not the gift; salvation is (salvation by grace through faith). It's a gift that is offered to all and that we have to decide to accept or reject. See this post “Is Faith a Gift God Gives (forces on) Us?”
And read these verses and decide if you think God offers salvation to all men or if He just forces it on a few: "And he died for all ..."(2 Cor. 5:15). "For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men."(Titus 2:11). "This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men..."(1 Timothy 2:3-5). “Consequently, just as the result of one trespass [Adam’s sin] was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness [Jesus’ death] was justification that brings life for all men.”(Romans 5:18). "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son ..."(John 3:16). "He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."(2 Peter 3:9b). "… but now [God] commands all people everywhere to repent.”(Acts 17:30) How much clearer could God have made it!?!]
Heather says: "Or does He do something to their thinking/brains that keeps them from wanting to be saved?"
Roland replies: I believe God does use means to accomplish His will. He can leave men alone as in passing them over. [My note: “Passing over them” is just the Calvinist way of saying “Keeping them sinners. Not regenerating them. Leaving them as the hell-bound sinners God predestined/created them to be.” But they say “God passed over them” because it sounds better than “God predestined them to hell,” as if it makes Calvi-god less responsible for them being in hell than he really is.]
Romans 1:26 talks about God giving people up to their own passions and desires. [My note: But it doesn’t say that God caused them to have those passions and desires, as Calvinist believe. The people chose to be the way they wanted to be, to reject God and His ways, and so God let them have their way, handing them over to their desires and the consequences.]
He can allow for Satan to have his way with people. [My note: Deceptive! Because in Calvinism, it’s not just “allow.” It’s that Calvi-god predestined, caused, controlled everything Satan does. Big difference!]
He can send a strong delusion as 2 Thessalonians 2:11. [My note: Yes, He can. But it’s to force the people to decide if they want to believe the truth or a lie, to force them to make their decision. It’s not, as Calvinists would say, to force them to choose what they do. It’s just to force them to make their choice.]
He can harden their hearts as the way He did with pharaoh. [For the biblical view of "harden," see this post (#6) "A Quick Study of Calvinism's Favorite Words" or this post "According to the concordance ... it's NOT predestination!"]
He can hide the truth from them as Jesus did in speaking parables. He does not have do something to their thinking or their brains because man doesn’t want to be saved. [My note: And why not? Because Calvi-god gave them the sin-nature (a magic potion) that made them not want to be saved, and they have to obey the desire to be unsaved, and so all they can choose is to be unsaved, to reject God, just like he predestined. So Calvi-god first causes them to want to be unsaved so that they can never choose to be saved ... and then he hides the truth from them, as if they could have believed it if he didn't hide it!?! Strange! Calvinists talk like they believe people have a real choice, but it all comes back to Calvi-god predestining, causing, controlling everything, even our thoughts, desires, sins, and choices. It’s never the true choice of the individual.]
But those who do believe, as Jesus said, will not be cast out, John 6:37.
I don’t believe the Bible teaches us that every man wants to be saved and that God has to intervene so they will not be saved. It is the opposite. No one wants God, no one seeks after God, so in order for any person to be saved, God must intervene.
[My note: Or, biblically and more accurately, it's that left to ourselves, no one would want God or seek after God, which is why He doesn't leave us to ourselves. God does intervene to save us, but He does this for all people, making salvation available to all. It's why He revealed Himself in nature (Romans 1:20) and in our hearts (Ecc. 3:11) and in His Word (John 20:31), why He convicts the world of sin (John 16:8), why He draws all men to Him (John 12:32) ... so that we will want Him and seek Him (Acts 17:27), so that no one has an excuse for not seeking Him (Romans 1:20). But He leaves it up to us (Josh. 24:15, Deut. 4:29, Amos 5:4, Is. 55:6, Heb. 11:6, etc.).
And no non-Calvinist would say that all men want to be saved either. We say that GOD wants all men to be saved and that it’s possible for all men to believe because God calls to all, Jesus died for all, God offers salvation to all, and He gave us the right to choose whom we will serve.
In Calvinism, if someone isn’t saved, it’s because God chose to reject them. In the Bible, if someone isn’t saved, it’s because they chose to reject God.]
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Roland replies to things Br.d. said:
Br.d says: "Why didn’t you simply say “In Calvinism all created things (including humans) have absolutely no choice in the matter of anything because in Calvinism creatures are NOT PERMITTED the function of choice.” Here is your opportunity. Go ahead and say it."
Roland replies: Because that’s not what Calvinism teaches or believes. Calvinists do believe we make choices [my note: the “choices” that God predestined/causes us to make], we determine things, but we are not the ultimate determiner of anything. Because you misunderstand Calvinism, you will continue to make this argument. The way you state it is not the way Calvinists state it [My note: … because Calvinists are all about disguising what they really mean, to the point that they’ve even tricked themselves into believing that they aren’t saying what they really are.] You can show quotes that are similar to what you wrote, and I can show you quotes that show that Calvinists believe we make choices. Would you like to have this back and forth?
Br.d. replies:
Roland says: "Because that’s not what Calvinism teaches or believes."
Br.d replies: Because it is an unpalatable TRUTH which Calvinism refuses to acknowledge.
HOWEVER – YOU ARE VERY CLOSE!
FIRSTLY
1) You declared you are NOT the DETERMINER of your thoughts – which is TRUE in Calvinism
2) The function of choice is a byproduct of and therefore requires the function of thought
3) Since you are NOT the DETERMINER of any thought that comes to pass within your brain, it follows you are not the DETERMINER of any choice.
SECONDLY:
4) In Calvinism, 100% of whatsoever comes to pass is solely and exclusively DETERMINED by Calvin’s god alone. And that includes all choice.
5) The function of choice requires at least 2 options - [A] and [NOT A] - which both exist as available from which to choose
6) It is LOGICALLY impossible for Calvin’s god to RENDER-CERTAIN both [A] and [NOT A] at the same time. Only one of these can be RENDERED-CERTAIN to exist – and made available to you.
7) Therefore, since you have no option(s) (plural) available to you – it LOGICALLY follows that the function of choice is not available to you.
THIRDLY:
8) Calvin’s god is the only one in the universe who has the function of choice. He exercises choice as a part of his sovereignty – which he does not grant to mankind.
The reason Calvinists don’t teach it – is because it is unpalatable.
My comment, along the same lines:
Calvinists give long, convoluted, round-about answers to make it seem like they are not saying “God controls all our thoughts,” when that’s exactly what they are saying.
Roland had said: I repeat again that there is not one prominent Calvinist who is teaching that "a sinner cannot receive the gift of faith because ‘not one single impulse can come to pass within a human being’s brain unless Calvin’s God specifically decrees it.’”
And I would say that’s the problem. They don’t teach it, but they mean it. They don’t come right out and say it (they try to hide/disguise it), but it’s exactly what their theology affirms. They try very hard (look at the word gymnastics they go through) to make it seem like they believe that people make real choices and so we deserve the punishments. And they have to do this because if Calvinists admitted that God (Calvinism’s god) controls our thinking and actions then they would have to admit that He is responsible for our sins and should be held accountable for them, and then He’d be unjust for punishing people for doing what He caused them to do.
I believe that God can use our self-chosen sins for His plans, but I do not believe that God predestines those sins or that He gives us no choice to do differently. And since they are our self-chosen sins (and not in the nonsensical Calvinist way of “Sinners can only choose the sin God predestined for them and cannot desire to do anything different,” where we don’t really have a choice, even though they call it “choice”), we truly deserve any punishment we get, even if God incorporates those sins into His plans. He doesn’t preplan/cause our sins, but He can and does use them and work them into His plans.
The God of the Bible is a very big, complex, wise God who can handle things He doesn’t predestine, cause, control. Who can work everything, even things He didn’t plan/cause, into His plans.
Calvi-god is a tiny, simple-minded, stupid god who can only handle what he himself causes, who can’t handle any other factors than what he predestines and causes. If there was one piece of dust that escaped Calvi-god’s control, he’d fall apart and cease to be god and all his plans would come undone.
A god that can be dethroned by one rogue piece of dust is no god at all.
Roland replies:
Heather says: "And they have to do this because if Calvinists admitted that God (Calvinism’s god) controls our thinking and actions then they would have to admit that He is responsible for our sins and should be held accountable for them, and then He’d be unjust for punishing people for doing what He caused them to do."
Roland replies: Here’s a list of verses that show how God CONTROLS both spectrums of the human experience: good and evil, light and dark, riches and poverty, health and sickness, etc. When I first began to study Reformed theology, I struggled with verses such as these ones for a couple of years. I did not want to believe that God wounds, creates calamity, causes poverty, kills, brings low, etc. My non-reformed pastors told me God didn’t do these things and that these verses are just symbolic. God doesn’t make people sick, poor, kill, He does the opposite. I believed my pastors. Not anymore. I take them in the plain sense of the reading. These verses say what they say about God. A person can believe it, reject it, or twist it. Then after rejecting the true revelation of God, a person creates their idol and that’s what they worship. [My note: How ironic, because that's exactly what Calvinists do!]
Deuteronomy 32:39: “Now see that I, even I, am He, and there is no God besides Me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; nor is there any who can deliver from My hand.”
1 Samuel 2:6-7: “The Lord kills and makes alive; He brings down to the grave and brings up. The Lord makes poor and makes rich; He brings low and lifts up.”
Ecclesiastes 7:13-14: “Consider the work of God; for who can make straight what He has made crooked? In the day of prosperity be joyful, but in the day of adversity consider: Surely God has appointed the one as well as the other, so that man can find out nothing that will come after him.”
Isaiah 45:5-7: “I am the Lord, and there is no other; There is no God besides Me. I will gird you, though you have not known Me, that they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting that there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other; I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the Lord, do all these things.”
Lamentations 3:37-38: “Who is he who speaks and it comes to pass, when the Lord has not commanded it? Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that woe and well-being proceed?”
[My note: So Roland uses those verses to try to prove that God controls every aspect of human behavior/experience (after denying earlier that Calvinism's god controls our thoughts!). I wonder then how he would incorporate these verses into his theology:
Hosea 8:4: “They set up kings without my consent; they choose princes without my approval.”
Isaiah 30:1: “Woe to the obstinate children,” declares the Lord, “to those who carry out plans that are not mine.”
Jeremiah 19:4-5, about the child sacrifice being done, God says it was “something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind.”
1 Kings 20:42: “This is what the Lord says, ‘You have set free a man I had determined should die.'”
Acts 14:16: “In the past, [God] let all nations go their own way.”
Matthew 23:37: “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem … how often I have longed to gather your children together … but you were not willing.”
Ezekiel 13:22 (KJV): "Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad ..." And the CSB version puts it this way: "Because you have disheartened the righteous person with lies (when I intended no distress)..." (In Calvinism, God would be the one who preplanned and ultimately caused people to lie to the righteous people. He would have preplanned/intended to cause the righteous people to be disheartened, contradicting His claim that He never intended to do that. And so either God lies or Calvinism lies. Which one do you think it is?)]
Pastor Loz replies:
Just looking for where these verses or any others in the Bible say that God unchangeably ordains, decrees, plans, predetermines all sin, renders it certain so that the sinner cannot do otherwise…
Oh I know! I’ll go to Calvin, Helm, Palmer, Cheung, Sproul Junior, Piper! Who needs the Bible after all?
Roland replies:
Pastor Loz says: "Just looking for where these verses or any others in the Bible say that God unchangeably ordains, decrees, plans, predetermines all sin, renders it certain so that the sinner cannot do otherwise…"
Roland replies: I agree with you, let me know when you find a verse that says God unchangeable ordains, decrees, plans, predetermines all sin, renders it certain it so that the sinner cannot do otherwise. I agree. [My note: He says this while, at the same time, Calvinism teaches that God ordains, decrees, plans, predetermines everything that happens and that nothing different could happen than what God ordained. Does “everything” not include sin, in Calvinism? According to at least one high Calvinist, James White, child rape was ordained by God, because if it wasn't then it would be meaningless. So I guess, to Calvinists, it's so much better to have "meaningful child rape" that God caused than to have evil happen because God allows people to make their own decisions. (Excuse me, but I think I'm gonna go be sick now. Calvinists have no clue that they are worshipping Satan in disguise.)]
But us Calvinists put ourselves in a tough position when we believe what Paul wrote in Ephesians 1:11: “In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,”
Does all things include sin? Yes but we also believe Scripture that teaches us that God is not the author of sin [My note: See? So here he says “all things” includes sin, but above he appears to deny that God ordains/plans/predetermines sin. They talk out of both sides of their mouths, while thinking they’re not, which is why it’s pointless to debate them. It's a "tough position" because they are trying to mesh their unbiblical Calvinist ideas with the Bible. And it can't work.
And besides, to “work all things together" is not nearly the same thing as “to cause all things,” which is how Calvinists interpret it. God can work our self-chosen sins into His over-arching plans, making something good and useful out of them. But Calvinists believe He preplans/causes/controls all our sins (and so we couldn't have chosen any differently) to make everything work out just like He planned. Big difference!
Because one God is not responsible for our sins, but the other one is. One God allows people to decide if they will obey or disobey and then punishes those who willingly choose to disobey, but the other one causes people to do what he told them not to do but then he punishes them for it. One God is not pleased by or glorified by evil but can be glorified in spite of evil by working it out for good, but the other one preplans and causes evil precisely because it's pleasing and glorifying to him. One God can be trusted to mean what He says and say what He means, but the other one can't be trusted because he always says one thing but means another, such as saying he wants all people to be saved when he really wants most people in hell, and telling us to choose whom we will serve when he gave us no choice, and calling us to seek him and believe in him when he's made it impossible for us to do it unless he causes us to, and commanding us to not commit the sins he predestined/causes us to commit, etc.. One of these Gods can be trusted, and one cannot. One is the God of the Bible, and the other is Satan in disguise.
And finally, to say things like "God ordains evil/sin but isn't the author of evil/sin" is Calvinist nonsense - rambling, convoluted, Alice-in-Wonderland-type nonsense to try to convince themselves that they aren't saying God causes evil when they really are. Now, back to Roland's comment ...]
James 1:13: “Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.”
There must be a way to harmonize this, and the closest I’ve found is the compatibilist argument [which is the Calvinist view that man “chooses” to do what God predestined him to do, and then God holds him accountable for it. But actually, the better way to harmonize this – the one that still keeps God character intact – is to say that God gave people free-will, the right to make real choices, and so if they sin, He didn’t predestine/cause it but they chose it. But He foreknew what they would choose, and so He knew how to work it into His plans for good. God may force us to make our choice but He doesn't force us to obey or disobey. He leaves that up to us. And He can work whichever one we choose into His plans. He's just that wise, powerful, and good. See! It’s not that hard to understand - unless you teach, as Calvinism does, that God predestines, causes, controls everything we do, even our sins, but then He holds us responsible for it.]
But can God’s decree change? The Bible says no.
Proverbs 19:21: “There are many plans in a man’s heart, Nevertheless the Lord’s counsel—that will stand.” [My note: The funny part is that, in Calvinism, God would have first put the plans in the man's heart that He then had to oppose. So in Calvinism, God decrees to oppose His decrees. He creates plans He then has to thwart. Calvi-god is a strange, little god.]
Isaiah 14:24: “The Lord of hosts has sworn, saying, “Surely, as I have thought, so it shall come to pass, And as I have purposed, so it shall stand:”
I don’t believe that anyone can stop God’s counsel, purpose, or thoughts. If He has decreed it, I believe He will accomplish His plan.
[My note: In context, Isaiah 14:24 is specifically about God's prophetic plan to crush "the Assyrian." But Calvinism cannot thrive when "in context" is applied. Instead, they overgeneralize and misapply verses like this, saying "See, it says God planned something. Therefore it must mean He plans everything that happens." It's like saying "Since all monkeys are animals, it must mean all animals are monkeys." But nonetheless, I agree that when God has planned something, it will happen, in one way or another. But that does not mean, as Calvinists assume, that God planned all things to happen as they did. They are stretching Scripture beyond what it says, to make it fit their Calvinism.]
Pastor Loz says:
Roland says: “Calvinists put ourselves in a tough position when we believe what Paul wrote in Ephesians 1:11 … ”
Loz says: Every Calvinist I have debated on Eph 1:11 seems to believe there is only one possible interpretation of Eph 1:11 - that “God works all things” = “God unchangeably decrees, predetermines everything that happens.” It’s not the only possible interpretation. There are at least two others, or two aspects of an alternative explanation, which has absolutely no trouble harmonizing with James 1:13, or any other verse, because there isn’t even an apparent contradiction, let alone an actual one.
1. Everything that God does (all the things God works), He does in accordance with the counsel of His will. In other words, nothing God does is unplanned or random.
2. God works in and through all things, including those He has not planned, predetermined, or done by His own direct action, to bring about His purpose.
Roland says: “But can God’s decree change? The Bible says no…”
Loz says: The debate is not about whether God’s decree can change. No being outside of God can change His decree. No-one can stop Him from doing what He purposes to do. He does everything He pleases. The debate is about what God decrees. [My note: And “God does everything He pleases” (biblical) isn’t the same thing as “Everything that happens is because God was pleased to cause it” (Calvinism, unbiblical). “God’s decrees don’t change” (biblical) isn’t the same thing as “everything that happens is because God decreed (preplanned, caused, actively controlled) it” (Calvinism, unbiblical). And "decrees" doesn’t have to mean "preplanned, caused, controlled by God," as Calvinists see it. Sometimes, it's simply God saying, "So that’s what you want to do!?! Fine, then I'll allow you to do it."]
Br.d. challenges Roland:
Roland, please take each of those bible verses and for each one show us how that verse EXPLICITLY declared Calvin’s god determines whatsoever comes to pass within the human brain.
Otherwise – you are simply misusing scripture
Roland replies:
And when did I make the claim that these verses EXPLICITLY say this?
You are asking me to defend a claim I never made. I provided these verses to Heather to show that there are not things that God has not created or does not create. [My note: Notice how careful he is here to say "create" instead of what he really means and what he said earlier: "CONTROL". Calvinism is all about obscuring what they really mean, every chance they get.] I provided them to show Heather that these verses show us the spectrum in which God is involved with creation. The claim you are asking me to defend, EXPLICITLY, by the way, anytime someone uses the word EXPLICITLY they’re setting a very difficult standard to meet, is not a direct statement of Scripture. It is a claim derived from Scripture.
My comment:
Thank you to everyone for their input.
Pastor Loz, I was gonna say the same thing: Where do these verses (that Roland quoted) say anything about God preplanning, ordaining, controlling, causing sin. To kill and make alive, to wound and heal, to make sick or well, is not the same thing as causing someone to sin, causing them to do something God commanded them not to do and then holding them accountable for it. These verses Roland quoted are on a different level than predestining sin, which would make God the author of evil (even though Calvinists deny it) and unjust for punishing people for doing the evil He caused them to do. Calvinists read into these verses things that are not there.
Just like how they read verses about God causing His plans to work out … but they hear “God plans all things, and all things happen because God planned them” instead. But that’s not what the verses say. Just because God has plans He works out doesn’t mean He preplanned/causes everything that happens. Calvinists don’t give God enough credit for being a big, wise God who can allow true free-will but who can still figure out how to work our choices (ones He didn’t predestine/cause) into His plans to get His plans accomplished.
Roland says: “But us Calvinists put ourselves in a tough position …” for believing that God predestined/controls everything yet isn’t the author of sin.
No, that’s not a tough position. It’s an impossible position. Totally contradictory. Irreconcilable. And that’s why their arguments are so convoluted and contradictory, and it’s why they always fall back on “Well, you can’t understand it anyway. You can’t use human logic to figure it out. You just have to accept it. Who are you to talk back to God anyway?”
[You know, it’s funny, but I was just reading a quote from RC Sproul about how he became a Calvinist. He said that he couldn’t get away from the weight of the logic and arguments for Calvinism (from other Calvinists), and so he had to submit to it. And yet Calvinists constantly shame Christians who use logical arguments to question/fight Calvinism, accusing them of putting human logic over God. So according to Calvinists, it’s okay to use logic to get into Calvinism but not to get out of it. Hypocritical!]
And Roland quoted Eph 1:11 to show God predestines everything, even sin. But what is really predestined here? In Eph 1:5, believers are predestined to the adoption of children (it’s not that sinners are predestined to be believers), which Romans 8:23 tells us is the redemption of our bodies.
And here’s Eph 1:11-12 (KJV): “In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will, that we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.” This doesn’t say that God predestined everything that happens, even sin. What was predestined is either the eternal inheritance believers will get or that we will be to the praise of His glory (or both). God did not predestine our actions or that certain sinners will become believers. He predestined that anyone who believes in Jesus will get an inheritance and be for God’s glory. Big difference!
(And once again, “working all things” is different than the Calvinist’s “predestining/causing/controlling all things.” God can work His plans out without predestining, causing, controlling all that happens. Or maybe Calvinists don’t think He’s that smart and complex?)
And he used Proverbs 19:21 to show that God’s decrees never change. Yet this verse contradicts Calvinism because (if Calvinism is true) God Himself would have decreed the plans that were in man’s heart … and then He contradicts them. Decreeing one thing and then decreeing the opposite is indeed God changing His decrees.
I agree with Roland that no one can stop God’s counsel, purpose, or thoughts, that if He decreed something it will be accomplished. But I disagree with the “how.” Calvinists say God has to predestined/control all things (even sin) for His plans to get done. But I say that God, in His supreme wisdom, being over and above all, can work with (not causing) man’s choices to eventually get His overall plans accomplished.
Example: Undercover police don’t have to cause criminals to be criminals or to control their criminal behavior in order to get their undercover plans done, to get justice done. Undercover police just smartly know how to incorporate the criminal’s self-chosen-behavior and choices into their undercover plans, in order to get justice done. In both these cases (whether the police cause/control the criminal’s illegal choices or whether they just incorporate the criminal’s choices into their plans), their undercover plans for justice get accomplished. But in the first case (causing/controlling), the police would be the ones who would be truly responsible for the criminal’s choices (and so it would be unjust for them to punish the criminals). But in the second one (allowing the criminals to make their own choices and incorporating it into the police’s plans), the criminals are the guilty ones and can be held accountable. All the police did was let the criminals make the illegal choices they were going to make, and the police incorporated it into a plan to get justice done.
God doesn’t have to predestine, cause, control all things, even sin, to get His plans done. He is much wiser, more complex, more powerful than that. He can work everything – even our self-chosen sins – into His plans. It’s only the Calvinists who say He can’t, who limit His power and sovereignty, saying that He can only be God if He predestines, causes, controls all things, even sin. They do great damage to His character and His Word, while thinking that they are honoring Him and bringing Him glory. (And that, to me, shows how demonic Calvinism is.)
And I think Br.d is wise – and has every right – to ask Calvinists for verses that EXPLICITY teach what they believe. Because Calvinism is all about secret, double meanings for verses. Calvinists take what the Bible actually does explicitly say and they replace it with their Calvinistic “hidden messages,” with things that God does not explicitly say (which contradicts what He does explicitly say). So when Br.d asks for verses that clearly teach what Calvinism says, he is pointing out that Calvinism is built on reading into the Bible things that are not there, in opposition to what is clearly there.
The big difference between Calvinists and non-Calvinists is that we (non-Calvinists) point to what God clearly said and we take it as God said it, in a commonsense way. If God says “seek me,” He means “seek me.” If God says “Jesus died for all,” He means “Jesus died for all.” If God said “whosoever,” He means “whosoever.” If God said “the world,” He means “the world.” Etc.
But Calvinists point to verses and say (essentially), “Yes, it says that, but it doesn’t really mean that. It really means ….”, based on the things they’ve read into the Bible, things that are not in the verse at all.
And this ends the "Exposing Calvinism" posts!
