Exposing Calvinism: "All People" doesn't really mean "All People"

Here are some more comments from Calvinists and non-/anti-Calvinists from the Soteriology 101 post "Romans 8:29-30 or How We Can Trust God at His Word".  This time let's look at how, in Calvinism, "God loves all people" really means "God doesn't love all individual people, just all kinds of people."  (FYI: I made minor corrections for clarity.)

I made this comment:  “Calvinism destroys God’s trustworthiness, among other things.  And if we can’t trust that He says what He means and means what He says, then we may as well throw the Bible out, along with our faith!”

Jtleosala (Calvinist) replies (he is foreign and his grammar is a little wonky, so I made minor corrections for clarity):  Here's my counter argument: No, it is those people who argue that God loves the entire humanity, yet the rest are thrown to hell.  These people want to claim their own desires, not God’s desires which no one can tamper with, even if they continue to rumble and protest.  These are the people who destroy God’s trustworthiness, presenting God as a weak God who needs to beg for people to agree with Him and yet He does not get what He wants for Himself in the end (for "all people to be saved").

[My note: So in Calvinism, for God to be a "strong God," He needs to be the reason people are in hell, causing them to reject Him.  And if He's not the cause of people in hell then He would be a "weak God."  Calvinists accuse non-Calvinists - those who believe God gave us the ability to make decisions - of limiting/minimizing God, and yet Calvinists are the ones who have decided that God is weak if people have free-will, not non-Calvinists.  So who's limiting/minimizing God now!?!  

Also, Jtleosala claims that no one can tamper with God's desires, meaning that God always gets what He wants and causes what He wants.  Yet how many times in the Bible, especially the Old Testament, does God say that the people made decisions He didn't desire or delight in?  Go ahead, read it for yourselves and take note of all the times God said the people chose what He didn't want.  How does this mesh with the Calvinist belief that everything that happens is because God wanted/caused it, that God's desires always happen and that He causes everything He wants, and that we can't do anything God doesn't want?]

On a different note, Graceadict (non-Calvinist) said this at the end of a longer comment: "How does one get saved and know you are saved?  By believing what the Bible says.  1. That God loves the World, and that includes YOU.  2. That Jesus paid for the sins of the whole world."

Jtleosala responded to Graceadict with this:

1. "God equally loves all people on earth" is false.  It is just an illusion and an insincere offer to many.  [My note: At least he's upfront about it, unlike many Calvinists.  Other Calvinists try to make it sound like God really does love all people; but they really just mean that God has two different kinds of love: a "save your soul" love for the elect and a "gives you food and sunshine while you're on earth (before sending you to hell for being the unbeliever He caused you to be)" love for the non-elect.  It's hogwash!  Deceptive hogwash!  Do not trust a Calvinist who says "God loves everyone."  They do not mean that He loves everyone enough to die for them, to offer them salvation (but that's what they want you to think they are saying, until they've snared you deep enough in their theology).]

2. Jesus Christ offered His life for the sheep [and only the sheep], according to John 10:11,17, not the goats, tares, swine, false prophets, swine, false prophets, Judas Iscariot, the residents of Canaan who were annihilated by Joshua and his armies except Rahab the harlot at the command of God the Father.

If Jesus had already been punished and paid for all sins, including the sin of unbelief to Christ, then why is it that the rest are still thrown into hell as a form of punishment?  What happened to the efficacy of the blood of Christ that was used to cleanse them from the sin of unbelief?  Does it mean that the sin of unbelief is the ever great antidote to invalidate the blood of Christ that was already shed for the sin of unbelief?

So… how can one be able to trust God in His words if it is used to scaffold a false and inconsistent, illogical claim?

(In a different comment, he also says this:)  How we can trust God at His word? … if someone holds on to a universal atonement of Christ but the rest are still damned to hell?  

[My notes: When John 10 talks about "the sheep," it's not saying that Jesus died only for the Calvinist "elect," for those who believe.  If you read it in context, it's saying that we can only get salvation through Jesus, that Jesus was sent to bring salvation to us: to the Jews first (the original sheep) and then to the Gentiles (vs 16: "I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen.  I must bring them also....").  

Calvinists assume that God causes certain people to become sheep.  But the verses don't say that.  It doesn't say anywhere that certain people were created/forced/predestined to be sheep.  But it does say this in verses 7-9: "... I am the gate for the sheep ... whoever enters through me will be saved."  

This isn't saying "Only the saved sheep enter the gate" (as Calvinists believe), but it's saying "If anyone comes through Me (the gate), they will be saved (will become one of His sheep)."  If they were on the outside of the sheep pen at first,  they were not yet one of Jesus's sheep.  They had to enter the sheep pen - through faith in Jesus - to become one of the sheep.  It's not that those who are predestined to be saved come to Jesus; it's that if we come to Jesus we will be saved.  Anyone can become a sheep - Jew or Gentile- by believing in Jesus.  

(And besides, even if "I lay down my life for the sheep" meant "Jesus died for believers," it doesn't say that Jesus died only for the sheep/believers.  Other verses clearly say that Jesus died for all men.  And "the sheep" would be part of "all men," wouldn't they?)  

Jesus died for the sheep, as well as for all men, and so anyone can become one of His sheep.  But only those who choose to believe in Jesus, to put their faith in Him, will be saved and can recognize His voice and follow Him.  That's what this passage is about.  Read it for yourself.  See what you think.

And on another note: Calvinists cannot understand how there could be people in hell if Jesus died for all.  They are stuck in their presumption that all the people Jesus died for will be saved, that if Jesus died for your sins (including the sin of unbelief) then your sins will not and cannot be held against you.  Therefore, no one should be in hell for unbelief if Jesus died for all sins, including unbelief.  And so if you are in hell for sin, for not believing in Jesus, then it must be that Jesus didn't die for all sins, that He didn't die for you.  

But the Bible is clear that Jesus died for all sins of all people, but (and this is what Calvinists refuse to accept as biblical truth) God requires that we accept His forgiveness of sin - through belief in Jesus - for it to be applied to our lives, to cover our sins.  Jesus's death paid the price for all sins, making salvation available to all people, but God gives us the choice to accept it or reject it.  

But since Calvinists do not think we get to decide if we will accept or reject Jesus and the offer of salvation (they think God makes that decision for us), then if people are in hell it's not because they rejected Jesus but it must be because Jesus didn't die for them.  But this is not based on the Bible, but on their own philosophical ideas of how things must be if there's no free-will and if God controls all we think and do (their wrong definition of "sovereign").  This is why they have to change all the "Jesus died for all people" verses to "But not all individual people, just all kinds of people, all the elect from all different nations."]

Graceadict says:

Jtleosala, you find it hard to believe that God genuinely loves all of his creation and is not willing that any should perish and that God would make it genuinely possible for any person to be saved.  On our side below are some of the scriptures that show us God REALLY is good to ALL.  The fact that some end up in hell is because God gave us a genuine choice… some choose to believe and others choose not to believe.  That is the choice Sovereign God has given to all men everywhere.  It does not diminish His Love and His Provision.  In fact it exalts His Grace and Mercy as He genuinely extends it towards all men, even those who choose to walk away.

2 Peter 3:9: The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, *NOT WISHING THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH*, but that *ALL SHOULD REACH REPENTANCE*.

John 3:16: For God so *LOVED THE WORLD*, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:17: For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

Isaiah 53:6: ALL we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of US ALL.

1John 2:2: He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also *FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD*.

Hebrews 2:9: But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor, that He by the grace of God should *TASTE DEATH FOR ALL*

1Timothy 2:3-6: …God our Savior, who *DESIRES ALL PEOPLE TO BE SAVED* and to come to the knowledge of the truth.  For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who *GAVE HIMSELF AS A RANSOM FOR ALL*, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

Act 17:30: The times of ignorance God overlooked, but NOW HE COMMANDS ALL PEOPLE EVERYWHERE TO REPENT,

Since we have a choice, you can choose to say “these verses do not show God’s love and provision to all.”  That is up to you.

I, on the other hand, choose to believe that God was communicating truth and that He does not have a “secret will” that contradicts His Revealed will.

It is your choice… choose wisely.

Jtleosala responds:

Graceadict and her Non-Calvinist allies interpret the “ALL” in those verses cited as referring to all humanity on earth, i.e: including Judas Iscariot, the False prophets, the cults, the Pope of the RC, the goats, the Tares, the Swine, atheists, and those residents of Canaan whom God commanded Joshua and his armies to annihilate.  In your view, Jesus loves them and Jesus offered His life for them, yet they still perish.  [My note: Calvinists assume that Jesus only saves/died for those he loves and that if he loves you and died for you then you WILL BE saved (you were elected for heaven).  And so all those who aren't saved were never loved by Calvi-god.  And Calvi-Jesus didn't die for them because they were predestined for hell.  (Calvi-Jesus wouldn't waste his blood on those predestined for hell.)]

On the Calvinist's side, the “ALL” is referring to all of the Elect Israel and elect Gentiles coming from all nations, tribe, peoples and, tongue (Rev. 7:9).  But not all Gentiles or entire humanity on earth.  Christ atonement provided for them (the elect) is sure and effective, whereas it is not effective to those reprobates even if they will claim for it or be offered to them, as an example: Jesus denies them in Matt. 7:21-23.

Rev. 7:9: After these things, I looked and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of ALL nations [Gentiles] tribes, peoples, and tongues standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands.

[My note: So Calvinists have one verse about people from all nations being saved ... and they think it wipes out all the verses that say Jesus died for all men!?!  And see what I mean: Jtleosala is using the fact that there will be people from all nations around the throne to support the Calvinist belief that Jesus only died for "all kinds of men, the elect from all nations, not all individual men."  But where does it say that these people were elect (in the Calvinist sense) and that Jesus died only for them?  Just because there are men from all nations around the throne doesn't mean Jesus died only for them.  Jesus died for all, but only these people (from all different nations) chose to believe in Him.  If you go to a party and see 10 people there, does it automatically mean that only those 10 people were invited?  There are multiple verses out there that affirm Jesus died for all sins of all men, as seen in the verses Graceadict listed above and including these:

"And he died for all ..." (2 Corinthians 5:15)

"For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men."  (Titus 2:11)

“Consequently, just as the result of one trespass [Adam’s sin] was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness [Jesus’ death] was justification that brings life for all men.”(Romans 5:18)]

I respond to Jtleosala:

You (and all Calvinists) assume that “God loving you” means “God WILL MOST DEFINITELY save you,” instead of what it is biblically: that God bought salvation for you (for all people) but you have to accept or reject it.  If you can’t see this, if you misunderstand what God’s love accomplished, if you choose to always insist that God will force salvation on those He loves and that He only really loves those He saves, then you will never understand Scripture correctly.  You will always have to twist the “all” verses and the “world” verses and the “God loves” verses to fit your presumption.

2 Peter 2:1: "But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you.  They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign LORD who bought them-bringing swift destruction on themselves."

WHO BOUGHT THEM!

The Lord’s death bought the false teachers who brought destruction on themselves.  How is it possible for Jesus to have bought false teachers who are going to hell if Jesus’s death supposedly only bought the elect?

If Calvinism is true, either God “elects” false teachers or He is lying when He says that He “bought” them, because Calvi-Jesus didn’t die for those on their way to hell.  (And He’d be lying that they brought destruction ON THEMSELVES.  They didn’t ultimately bring destruction on themselves; Calvi-god did it.  Supposedly for his glory, right!?!  So then why would Calvi-god share his glory with these false teachers by saying that they did it?)

But if you toss out the Calvinism, we understand this verse as saying that Jesus’s death paid for these false teachers, for EVERYONE, but they end up bringing destruction ON THEMSELVES because they reject the truth.  God didn’t love them any less.  Out of love, He provided salvation for them, just like He did for those who accept Him.  But they decided to reject it instead of to accept it.

This is so simple to understand that I am amazed at how Calvinists can’t see it, how they refuse to see it, how they continue to try to defend their view that God only loved a few people and that Jesus only died for a few people and that God deliberately created most people so that He could hate them and send them to hell, supposedly for His glory, and so that He could show how just He is, how seriously He takes sin (sin that He supposedly CAUSED in the first place, but then He punishes us for it – yep, sounds like “justice” to me!!!) … and to show the elect how loving and merciful He is to them, compared to the non-elect.

Calvi-god to the elect: “I could have randomly hated and slaughtered you too for no reason at all other than I felt like it.  So be thankful I randomly picked you to love enough to save.  Now love me and worship me, although you have no choice about it anyway.  Yep, I feel glorified now!”

It’s sick!  It really is!  Calvi-god is a sick, sick god!

Calvinists can come up with all the verses they want to.  They can “verse bomb” us with verse after verse that supposedly “supports” their view.  But the problem isn’t that they can’t quote Scripture, it’s that they have presuppositions underneath all those verses that change the clear, simple, expressed meaning of those verses.  So it’s pointless to listen to Calvinists quote verses.  Because they always twist them to fit their hidden interpretation of those verses, which changes the meaning and contradicts what the verse actually says.

Jtleosala also says “Jesus denies them in Matt. 7:21-23.”

You assume that Jesus denies them because He didn’t love them, because He didn’t die for them.

Where does it say this in Scripture?

Because what I see is that they are denied because they weren’t really doing the will of the Father, they didn’t really know the Father even though they claimed to know Him.  They didn’t have real faith, but they had “religion.”  And because of this, Jesus didn’t “know” them.  But where in the verse does it say that God created them to have this fake faith or that Jesus didn’t really die for them or that they couldn’t have had real faith if they wanted it?

You assume it!

But, keeping the Bible’s message in tact, I would say that they themselves chose this fake faith, instead of choosing real faith in the real God.

[Added note: “They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts.  Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, with a continual lust for more.”  (Ephesians 4:18-19)

The people hardened themselves, became ignorant and darkened in their understanding, lost sensitivity to God, and then gave themselves over to sensuality.

Calvinists will say that this verse means that God caused them to be ignorant by hardening their hearts.  That He “forced” them to be blind to Him.  But actually, the word in the concordance is not “hardening” of heart but “blindness” of heart.  And according to the concordance, “blindness” in this passage involves the idea of being callous toward something.  And it comes from a word which is used of the Israelites who deliberately refused God’s ways and His Will.

It’s not that God chose to harden their hearts and make them ignorant; it’s that they chose to be callous toward Him, to deliberately refuse Him.  And this led to their ignorance, their darkened understanding, and their insensitivity to God.

And “ignorance” is not just “not knowing” or “being unaware,” as though God never revealed Himself to them, never gave them a chance.  According to the concordance, it is a deliberate, willful decision to be blind.

Refusing God’s way.  Willfully blind.

This is basically saying, “They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because they have willfully chosen to be blind, due to their callous refusal of God’s Will and way.”

The decision to believe or not believe lies with mankind.  We choose to either submit to the truth or to be blind to it.  And that’s why we can justly be held accountable for our unbelief.  Because we choose to not believe.  To be resistant Him.  To walk down the path to hell by refusing His offer to get us off of it.  He does not make that choice for us.

One more example of “ignorant” is Romans 10:3 (RSV): “For, being ignorant of the righteousness that comes from God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness.”

Paul says that the people are "ignorant" of the righteousness that God gives (through salvation in Jesus).  But once again, "ignorant" in this passage does not mean "God never told me" or "I had no idea because God blinded my mind."  It means to deliberately ignore something, being unwilling to see it.  Paul is saying that the Israelites knew the truth and chose to ignore it.  It is a deliberate ignorance.  They were unwilling to see the truth.  They chose to resist it, to be ignorant of God’s way.  And they created their own way instead.  This does not sound like “predestination” to me, like God made them this way.  It sounds like they were responsible for their choice.  And Paul knew it.  And it’s why he grieved for them and worked so hard to reach them.]

And to support your assumption that “God loving ALL people” really just means “God loves the few people He elects,” you quote Rev. 7:9 “After these things, I looked and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of ALL nations [Gentiles] tribes, peoples, and tongues standing before the throne …”

But you’ll notice something in that verse that isn’t in the “God loves all men,” “Jesus died for all men,” “God wants all to be saved” verses … and it’s that Rev 7:9 specifies that there will be people from ALL NATIONS around the throne in the end.  Whereas the other “all” verses don’t have that, they don’t specify that “God loved only some from ALL NATIONS” or that “Jesus died for only some from ALL NATIONS” or that “God only wants some from ALL NATIONS to be saved.”

And they don’t specify that because it’s not what God intended to say.  Calvinists add the idea of “some from all nations” to those verses.  They take Rev 7:9 and insert it into other verses where it doesn’t belong.

But, when understood properly, there is no incompatibility between Rev 7:9 and those other verses.  God loves all and wants all to be saved and Jesus died for all, but all will not be saved because many will reject the salvation that is offered to them.  And therefore, not ALL PEOPLE will be around the throne, but there will be some from ALL nations that have chosen to accept the salvation offered to them.

Calvinism is built on a foundation of assumptions and presumptions!  But until and unless they first stop and examine the assumptions/presumptions they filter Scripture through, Calvinists will never understand Scripture correctly!

In a different string of comments, but along similar lines,  Jtleosala says this: 

“The verse [“No one can come to the Father except a person is drawn by the Father to the Son”] does not say ALL people are drawn by the Father to the Son.  If that is really true then why are not ALL people go to heaven?  If ALL people can come to the Son, then why is it that the rest are still thrown to hell?  You have espoused a doctrine that is illogical contradicts itself, that you cannot afford to reconcile.”

I replied: 

I agree with you that “No one can come to the Father except a person is drawn by the Father to the Son” doesn’t say “all people” are drawn to Jesus.  But this verse does: “And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” (John 12:32)  

So how do we reconcile the two?

First off, Calvinists assume that the “No one can come …” verse means that God specifically picks out certain people to “draw” to Jesus.  Where does it say this in the verse?  All it says is that we can’t come to Jesus unless God draws us, that those who come to Jesus do so because God “drew” them.  But where does it say in Scripture that this “drawing” isn’t for everyone?  (Calvinists assume it’s not for everyone!)  Where does Scripture refute the idea that God draws all people but that we decide to submit to or resist that drawing?  (Scripture shows over and over again times when God drew people but they resisted.)

If I send out invitations to people for a party that I am fully paying for, I have invited them.  I am drawing them to the party, a party they could not have known about or come to unless I made them aware of it.  But they have the responsibility/opportunity to either accept that invitation or reject it.  They do not have to earn their place or pay for their entrance into the party.  It’s all been done by me, paid for by me, made possible by me.  All they have to do is accept the invitation.  But none of them could have come – those who accept the invitation could not have come – had I not made it possible by inviting them and by paying the price for all.

This is an example of how I believe salvation is.  God made it all possible.  He created the whole idea of salvation and eternal life.  Jesus paid the price for all.  And God invites all people to come to Jesus.  But it’s up to us to accept or reject that invitation.  If we accept it, we are not “working for salvation,” as Calvinists like to accuse us of doing, trying to shame us into Calvinism.  We are simply acknowledging and accepting all the effort and work that God did to make it all possible.  But if we reject it, then it’s on us, and we will end up “paying” for our sins ourselves, in hell.

Just because many don’t come doesn’t mean they weren’t invited or that they can't come.  Just because some come doesn’t mean they were the only ones invited or that they were forced to come.

Also, you are assuming here that “being drawn” is the same thing as "being saved," that "being drawn" necessarily ends in salvation, that only a select few are drawn and that they will inevitably be saved because they were drawn.  Therefore, you reason that God can’t draw ALL people because not all people are saved.  Where is this in Scripture?  Because as I pointed out, John 12:32 says otherwise.

The problem is that you (that Calvinists) are reading into Scripture what you think it HAS TO mean.  For you, “drawing people” HAS TO mean “they will be saved.”  Whereas I believe that "draws them" means "invites them, revealing Himself to them through nature and in their hearts," and that God draws all people but that many can and do resist, as seen all throughout the Bible.  (And what a waste of energy and fake compassion it is for Calvi-god to create people specifically for hell but then to “pretend” to love them and to pay for all sins and to make salvation possible for all and to give them a choice ... when they really have no choice at all and the non-elect can't be saved no matter what!)

You ask “If ALL people can come to the Son, then why is it that the rest are still thrown to hell?”

There is nothing logically wrong with this sentence, unless you assume that “all can come” necessarily means “all HAVE TO come.”  Of course, “all HAVE TO come to Jesus” (“be saved”) would be incompatible with people being thrown into hell.  But “all CAN come” is not incompatible with people ending up in hell.

Scripturally, all people CAN come to Jesus, but most don’t … because they don’t want to.  They have the opportunity to be saved because Jesus’s death paid for all sins of all men.  (Not Calvi-Jesus though, his death only paid for the sins of the elect – a lie from the pit of hell!  In my opinion.)  Jesus paid the price for all men, and so all CAN come to Him.  But this doesn’t mean that all WILL come to Him.  And those who reject the sacrifice He made for them will end up in hell.

So … putting it all together … God draws all men, but we have to decide between accepting or rejecting that “draw.”  The draw is not irresistible, as Calvinism wrongly assumes.  It’s not just for the elect.  It’s for everyone, and whoever accepts the call to salvation will become a part of His elect.  The invitation is open to all.  Everyone’s ticket to heaven has been paid for.  But God will not force us to accept it.  And if we reject it, then we end up in hell, the place God was trying to save us from.

If you start with presumptions and wrong assumptions – if you force your own ideas of what Scripture HAS TO mean, when Scripture says otherwise, and if you force your own ideas of how God HAS TO be in order to be God, in contrast to how He’s really revealed Himself in Scripture – then you will be building a flimsy, incorrect theology from the very start.  And then it takes a lot of “word gymnastics” and secret “double meanings” and contradictory double-think (as Br.d. often points out) to make Scripture fit with your incorrect theology.

But instead of examining and correcting the inaccurate presumptions they have as their foundation, that they build their theology on, Calvinists just keep trying to make the Calvinist building on top more secure.

Calvinism: A house of cards built on a foundation of Jell-O!