Exposing Calvinism: Causing evil isn't sin for God!
I’ve been quoting a lot from Calvinists who comment on various Soteriology 101 posts because they reveal a lot about what Calvinists really believe and the ways they try to hide it and how they twist Scripture. I do this so that you can see for yourself how Calvinists go wrong and how they deceive. I don't want you to just accept my opinion but to see and understand for yourselves. So don't take my or anyone else's word for it. Read the Bible for yourselves, as God wrote it. Compare what the Bible teaches to what Calvinism says the Bible teaches. And, more importantly, compare the Bible to what Calvinism actually teaches underneath what they say Calvinism teaches (two different things).
(Note: It takes a lot of time: realizing that what they're saying doesn't sound quite right, trying to figure out why it doesn't sound right, trying to figure out what they really mean underneath what they're saying, researching the ways they twist and misinterpret Bible verses, figuring out what the Bible really says and how Calvinists got it wrong, etc. It takes a lot of time and effort. And this is why Calvinism spreads so easily - because most of us don't heed the "red flags" we're getting or take the time to do the research, to test what they say. We simply accept what they tell us because they sound so smart and confident and have so many Bible verses to supposedly back them up. And this is why I am writing this blog, to help those who can't put as much time into researching Calvinism as I have. If I already put the time in to learn what I have learned, then I'm gonna share it to make it easier for someone else.)
And then after all this, it's up to you to decide if you think Calvinism is right or wrong. [Unless Calvi-god really does make your decisions for you and there's nothing you can do about it. In that case, don't even bother thinking about anything I'm saying because everything's already been predestined by God, and it's all controlled by God, and nothing you think or do has any effect on what will happen. (Makes life meaningful, doesn't it? 😉)]
But let’s give another Calvinist a chance here. Check out these comments from a Calvinist I'll call RadCT (abbreviated), in a Reddit post about the age of accountability (I paraphrased these comments because I am not sure about copyright laws for Reddit, but you can find the actual comments if you click on the link):
… In the Bible, there is no verse that says that God does NOT author sin. And in fact, He Himself says in various verses that He is the direct cause of man's sins. (Even Romans 9:19 assumes that He causes our sins but punishes us for them.)
[My note: Wow! Just ... wow! I don't think I even need to comment on this one because everyone can see what he's saying, that God is indeed the author of sin. But at least he's coming right out and saying it, instead of trying to cover it up like most Calvinists do.
But let's look at Romans 9:19 a moment. "One of you will say to me: 'Then why does God blame us? For who resists his will?" This verse/chapter isn't assuming that God causes sin. It's about God using people's actions to fulfill His purposes. About God's right to choose one person over another for great purposes. Verse 21 reads: "Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?" Nowhere in this passage does it say God causes sin, just that He chooses who to use for what purposes.
And God can use someone's self-chosen sin to fulfill His purposes without causing them to sin, such as using Pharaoh's self-chosen hardness of heart to demonstrate His miracles and power before the people, during the plagues of Egypt. God did not cause Pharaoh to be hard-hearted. Pharaoh chose to be hard-hearted first, for several plagues, and then God made his choice permanent and worked it into His plans.
And if we want to be precise, this Romans chapter is about Israel, about God's choice to use Jacob's bloodline (instead of Esau's) to bring the Savior into the world and about God choosing to graft the Gentiles into Israel, extending salvation to the Gentiles too. This is, in no way, about the salvation of individual people or about God causing sin or predestining where individual people spend eternity or hardening hearts of the "non-elect" so that they go to hell. (Calvinists are totally wrong in their interpretation of Romans 9, and it detrimentally affects their whole theology.) It's about God choosing to use whomever He wants to, to fulfill His plans. But in no way does this imply that He controls what they choose to do. He just decides how to work their choices into His plans. (And, as in the case of Pharaoh, it's about God's right to give people what they want, permanently, for His purposes. Pharaoh wanted and chose to be hard-hearted, and so God eventually gave him what he wanted - a hard heart - permanently. And He worked it into His plans. According to the concordance, "hardens" in Romans 9:18 is a punishment, a retribution for first hardening your own heart, for resisting God for so long. If we choose to continue to be hard-hearted, resisting God's calls to repent, then God can eventually make it permanent as punishment. But make no mistake, we chose it first.)
Question: Which interpretation - the Calvinist one where God causes sin for His plans (and then punishes us for it) or the non-Calvinist one where God doesn't cause sin but can work our self-chosen sin into His plans - which one upholds His righteous, just, holy, trustworthy character better? And which one does serious damage to His character?
And as for the verses he quoted where God supposedly admits He causes evil - Isaiah 45:7, Ecclesiastes 7:14, Lamentations 3:38, Job 2:10 - the more accurate translation of "evil" in these verses (which is the word his Bible version uses) is along the lines of "calamity, distress, adversity, injury, woe, etc." More like a physically bad thing, an emotional trial, a difficult struggle. NOT a moral evil along the lines of wickedness. (God can cause distress or calamity, illness or natural disaster, or even use wicked people's choices to fulfill His plans ... and still be a holy, just, and righteous God. But He cannot cause/force people to sin, to do something He commanded them not to do, punishing them for it ... and still be a holy, just, righteous God.) Click here for the Hebrew word and its definition/usage. In the Brown-Driver-Briggs list, Isaiah 45:7 falls under the definition of "evil, distress, adversity" (II.1.) and Job 2:10 falls under "evil, injury, wrong" (II.2.). I can't find the other two in this list, but notice that they are NOT listed under the definition of "ethically bad, evil, wicked" (I.10. or II.3. or III.3.) Notice also that in the right-hand list of verses that use this word, sometimes it's even translated as "sad, ugly, wild, displeased, etc." This word doesn't have to - and it often doesn't - mean "wicked or ethically/morally evil." So just because a Calvinist quotes a verse to prove their Calvinism doesn't mean that they or the translation they use is right. And whatever Bible translation he's using is not good. (Also, if you're interested, click here for my research into the ESV.)
Never let a Calvinist have the last word. I mean, you can let them have the last word in a discussion, because they can be so determined to win at all costs (twisting Scripture, twisting your words, running you in circles, blasting you with multiple verses at once, taken out of context, which take too much time to look up and read in context while you're talking with them, etc.) that it becomes pointless to continue debating them, like throwing pearls to pigs. But don't let them have the last word in your mind. Don't let them convince you that they must be right just because they sound so smart and educated and know lots of Bible verses. Satan is very smart, too. He too knows God's Word very well and knows just how to twist it to lead people astray. Always question what Calvinists tell you and research what they say deeper. Write down the verses they use and read them later, in context, in the whole chapter. If you do this, the Calvinism always falls apart! For more on this, see my post: "12 Tips on How to Think Critically About Calvinism."]
… Men do have wills: the will that God made for them: Psalm 33:15 "he who fashions the hearts of them all and understands all their deeds."
[My note: This verse says God formed man's heart. He created us with hearts/minds/wills. But where does it say He controls what's in it or what we think, decide, choose? The word for "fashioned" here is the same one used in the creation story when God formed man and animals. By Calvinist reasoning then (and they do think this), because God created the beasts, He must also control every movement of the beasts. But where is that in the Bible? Where does it say that God "creating" something means He must also "control all its actions and thoughts"? This is Calvinists reading into the Bible something that is not there. They think that since God created everything, it must also mean He actively controls everything. Because if He didn't, He wouldn't be God. (So if God doesn't behave the way they think He has to, then in their estimation He can't be a powerful, sovereign God. And yet they accuse non-Calvinists of limiting God's power and sovereignty! Ironic!)
But this isn't true, as seen all throughout the Bible. See these verses for starters: Hosea 8:4, Isaiah 30:1, Jeremiah 19:4-5, 1 Kings 20:42, Acts 14:16, Matthew 23:37. Why don't Calvinists ever quote these verses or incorporate them into their theology?
Also note that the verse says He "understands all their deeds". Why and how do Calvinists change "understands" into "preplans, causes, controls"? All it says is God "understands" their deeds. And in the Hebrew, that word means "discerns." And nowhere in that definition does it say anything about "controlling or causing." This is Calvinists twisting scripture to fit their Calvinism.
And furthermore, if RadCT had looked back just a few verses to Psalm 33:10, he'd have seen this verse: "The Lord foils the plans of the nations..." Now this is the stupidest thing - because if Calvinism is true that God controls everything in our hearts/wills/minds (the point RadCT is trying to make when he quotes Psalm 33:15), then it would mean that God Himself puts the plans of the nations into the people's heads, which means that they are really His plans, which means that He is foiling His own plans. That is so nonsensical. And self-defeating. Is that the kind of God we have? One who works against Himself, who contradicts Himself, who works to defeat Himself? And then what are we to make of Psalm 33:11 where He says "But the plans of the Lord stand firm forever..."? How can God's plans stand firm forever if He foils His own plans!?! If Calvinism is true, then we're supposed to believe that God puts plans that He Himself made up into people's heads ... and then He foils them because of a different plan He had ... and yet "His plans will stand forever"!?! Which plans are those? The plans He put into their heads? His plans to foil them? His new plan about what He'll do with the foiled plans? IT'S SO STUPID!
The only right and logical way to understand all this is that man makes up his own mind but that God can thwart what man decides - NOT that God controls what's in man's mind/will/heart. This is the only way to make sense of how God can foil man's plans but that His plans stand forever.]
… Sin is when we break God's laws. But since He didn't give Himself these laws - since He didn't tell Himself that He can't do those things - then it's not sin for Him to do them.
[My note: Once again: Wow! Just wow! He’s saying that nothing is sin for God, that God can do any evil thing He wants and it's okay ... because He never told Himself that He can't do it. He only told us we can't do it. Oh! My! Goodness! The blasphemy! What then is left to differentiate God from Satan, if God can do everything Satan does but it’s okay? If I were RadCT, I’d be afraid of a bolt of lightning coming out of nowhere and striking me dead as I spoke these words.]
Along similar lines, in a different comment on that Reddit post, someone else rightly says that God wouldn't be a just God if He sent people to hell without giving them a choice or a chance to be redeemed.
And RadCT answers (paraphrased): God gets to decide what's just and what's not. So even if something seems unjust to us, it doesn't mean it is unjust. Because it might be just in God's judgment.
[My note: So things that are unjust in our eyes can be "just" in God's eyes!?! Injustice can be justice in God's eyes!?! Cheating, stealing, deceiving, letting criminals get away with crimes, punishing the innocent, taking advantage of the weak and powerless, forcing people to do something wrong but then punishing them for it, etc.? We would consider all these things injustices. But I guess we're mere humans and don't see things the way Calvi-god does. And in Calvi-god's eyes, these things might actually be just, good, A-OK! And "Who are we, O men, to tell Calvi-god that he can't do these things if he views them as good and says that they are okay for him to do?"
(Of course, there are things that we humans might call "unfair" that God doesn't, but this doesn't work when it comes to the Calvinist idea that God causes our sins and unbelief but then punishes us for it. The damage this does to God's character and the Gospel can't be explained away by "Well, God thinks it's fair and just, so it's okay.")
But if justice and injustice (good and wickedness, truth and lies, right and wrong) are the same in God's eyes, even though we might see a difference, then there really is no dividing line between them, nothing to ultimately differentiate them except our own delusions that there is a difference, that one is right and one is wrong. But apparently, in Calvi-god's eyes, these things can both be as good and God-glorifying as the other, and so it's okay for him to do them. And so when people (Calvinists) praise God for being "just and true" in all His ways (Revelation 15:3), they are really praising Him for also being an unjust God - because, as RadCT alludes to, there isn't necessarily any difference between just and unjust, at least in God's eyes. And so once again I ask, how then is Calvi-god any different from Satan? (And how then can we even praise God for His justice when we don't even know what justice is? When injustice can be justice?)
And while not every Calvinist says it as brazenly as RadCT does, they do say that God can do whatever He wants - even "ordaining" sin/evil (they mean "preplan and cause") and predestining people to hell - because He is "sovereign." Their definition of "sovereign" (being "in control" over all by preplanning all things and actively controlling all things) allows them to excuse any evil thing Calvi-god does ... because he is "in control," not us. And if he, in his sovereignty, decides it's okay to predestine people to hell with no choice on their parts, for his glory and pleasure and purposes, then "Who are we to talk back to him? He is sovereign and we are not."
I believe this kind of stuff (their idea that it's okay for God to cause sin and be unjust) reveals what's at the heart of their theology, the kind of god they serve: Satan in disguise.
I mean, seriously, can't you just hear the subtle twisting of God's character in the things Calvinists, like RadCT, say and how they try to shame and manipulate people into accepting it? It's nothing short of sly, demonic deception.]
… Non-Calvinists try to say that God is not responsible for sin and evil, but He Himself happily takes responsibility for those things. In the verses I quoted, He clearly says that He is the one who brings evil, darkness, and disaster. Either He caused it or He didn't. And He clearly says He did.
[My note: First off, it's not evil for God to bring "darkness and disaster." Causing darkness and disaster, while unpleasant, is nowhere near the same thing as causing sin. To cause a tornado is not the same as God causing someone to do something He told them not to do. Causing a tornado is not causing sin, but causing murder, abuse, lies, idolatry, disobedience, etc. is. So Calvinists are wrong to tie "causing evil/sin" in with "causing disaster." But they do this to trap you. If they can get you to agree that God can/does cause natural disasters (and that it's His right because He is God and is in control over the environment), then they "bait-and-switch" you into also agreeing that God can/does cause sin/evil and that it's okay because He is God and is in control over all.
For the record, non-Calvinists (and anti-Calvinists, like myself) do believe that God is "in control" over all too. But we believe that He is "in control" by watching over everything, by deciding what to cause (but never sin), what to allow (human choices and demonic activity, not causing the evil but working it into His plans), what to block/prevent, and how to work everything together (even our sins and wicked choices) into His plans. He doesn't cause people to be sinful, but He does know they are sinful and He knows what they will choose, and so He knows how He can work their self-chosen sin/wickedness into His plans for good.
But a Calvinist's version of "in control" means that God has to actively control all things, even sin, or else He can't be God. And so therefore, in Calvinism, God preplans everything that He wants to have happen and then He causes it to happen, even demonic activity, our wicked nature, and our sins, giving us no chance to do anything differently.
The non-Calvinist view makes man truly responsible for his sins and deserving of the punishment for our sins, while the Calvinist view makes God truly responsible for our sins which He punishes us for (an idea they usually try very hard to cover up). The non-Calvinist view upholds God's holy, righteous, just, trustworthy character, but the Calvinist one destroys it.
Calvinists are locked into their false dichotomies of "Either God is in control or man is in control" and "Either God controls everything or God controls nothing," as if man having any free-will at all (even if God chose to give it to us) means that God is not in control at all, that He is "helpless and weak and at the mercy of men" (a tactic they use to manipulate you). And everything else in their theology flows from this. They simply cannot understand that an all-powerful God could choose to voluntarily restrain Himself and to let people make real choices, that He can work things He doesn't want or cause or plan (such as our sins) into His plans. To them, "all-powerful" is only "all-powerful" if that power is being used all the time to control everything. (Telling God how God has to be in order to be God is a very dangerous thing!)
If you think about it, Calvinism's god is truly a much smaller, stupider god than the God of the Bible. The God of the Bible can work everything - even things He didn't plan, want, or cause - into His plans. He can handle anything and everything we throw His way. But Calvi-god can't handle any other factors than what he himself causes. I guess if anything were to happen that Calvi-god didn't preplan or cause (if there was even one speck of dust that he didn't control), it would throw a wrench into his plans and he'd be flummoxed, unsure of how to proceed or how to make it all work out. I guess he's just not as big, smart, or as sovereign as the God of the Bible who can give people the right to make real choices and yet still make His plans work out just fine.
(And not only do they have a tiny, stupid god ... but they have a tiny, stupid god who created most people so that he can hate them and send them to hell for his glory, who causes sin because it glorifies him, who punishes us for the sin he causes, and who deceives people by making us think we have choices when we don't. If that's the god Calvinists want to worship, then how terrible for them. And if that's the god they emulate and try to be like, then how terrible for us. And if that's the god and his twisted gospel they try to spread to others, then how terrible for the Church.)]
… We actually don't have any control over our own thoughts. Jeremiah 17:9 "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?" Proverbs 19:21 "Many are the plans in a person's heart, but it is the LORD's purpose that prevails."
[My note: He also quotes a few longer verses, but where does any of this say that we don’t control our thoughts? It says "who can understand it," not "man has no control over it." It's more about how God knows mankind better than we know ourselves, not about God controlling our thoughts and actions. What a twist they put on it! And clearly Proverbs 19:21 is saying that man does control his thoughts (the plans in his heart), but that God can use what we decide for His purposes, that He works it into His plans. The word “but” shows that man controls his thoughts but that God can still work it into His plans. If it was that God controls man’s thoughts too, it would be “and” - that God creates the plans in man’s heart and His purpose prevails.]
Johngalt1234 (non-Calvinist) replies: Then we wouldn't really be responsible for our sins.
[He's got it right. And it's as simple as that.]
RadCT responds with:
… Maybe not according to you, but that's between you and God. You seem to be wondering why God can hold us accountable for our sins if He predestines our sins, but that is answered in Romans 9:19-21 (ERV) "So one of you will ask me, ‘If God controls what we do, why does he blame us for our sins?’ Don’t ask that. You are only human and have no right to question God. A clay jar does not question the one who made it. It does not say, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ The one who makes the jar can make anything he wants. He uses the same clay to make different things. He might make one thing for special purposes and another for daily use." I know this isn't an easy truth to accept, but it's still truth.
[My note: The translation of the Bible that he's quoting from explains why he thinks the verse assumes that God causes sin. What the heck is the ERV translation anyway? Almost no other translation words it that way or adds the "sin" part. Here is the KJV (the most reliable one): "Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?"
Once again, as we already saw, there is nothing in this verse about God "causing sin." Except apparently in this strange ERV version. It's about the people and their decisions being used for God's purposes. They are asking how God can hold them accountable for the part they played in God's plans. And the answer would be because God didn't cause them to be the sinful/wicked people they are or cause them to make the choices they did; He just knew what they were like and what they would choose to do, and He worked it into His plans. A holy God cannot cause us to sin, but He can work our sins into His plans. This is how His plans get done but we are still accountable for our sins.
When cops do an undercover sting, they allow the criminals to be criminals and to do the illegal things they choose to do, using them to lead the police to the crime lords. The cop didn't make the criminals be criminals or commit crimes; they just worked the criminal's self-chosen character and decisions into their plans for good, for justice. Likewise, God doesn't have to cause sin to be able to use it for His plans. What a limited view of God that Calvinists have!
And what a deception it is to quote that verse from a Bible like the ERV. If that's the translation he's using, no wonder he's a Calvinist! (Also see my review of the Calvinist ESV.)
And if you read the whole Reddit thread, notice that RadCT (like all Calvinists) quotes the “Pharaoh hardens his heart” story out of order. They always first quote the verse where God says He hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and then they skip back and apply it to the previous scenario where Pharaoh first chose to harden his own heart for the first several plagues. They retroactively apply God’s hardening of Pharaoh’s heart to Pharaoh’s previous decision to do it himself. But biblically, it’s that God knew Pharaoh would harden his own heart, and God decided that when this happened, He would give Pharaoh what he wanted permanently: a hard heart. So He let Pharaoh decide first and then He made it permanent, but only after Pharaoh chose to be hard-hearted for several plagues.
But do you know how my Calvinist pastor "brilliantly" explained it so that it fit with Calvinism? "Yeah, it says that Pharaoh hardened his own heart, but it's really that God hardened it first." When the Bible clearly says the opposite! Shameless! And totally pathetic!]
Johngalt1234 replies: If Calvinism is true then our choices don't ultimately matter. So why bother with anything? Why try? It's all pointless. Life is nothing more than a cruel cosmic joke if we're nothing more than puppets following the script God wrote for us. What kind of a relationship is that? And it's schizophrenic for Calvinism's god to say that he wants all people to be saved but then to contradict himself by saying he is a potter who makes most people for hell.
[He then asks RadCT to read an article he left a link for and to get back to him. And remember that the potter analogy specifies God making some people for grand purposes and some for common purposes, not about God making some people for heaven and some for eternal damnation, as Calvinists would say. Big difference!]
RadCT responds: Choices do matter. They've just been predestined by God for us. And if you think the article has such great information in it, then you should be able to share its ideas on your own, instead of telling me to read it. But since you don't seem to want to discuss biblical evidence here, then maybe you just dislike Calvinism on an emotional level. I know it's hard to accept emotionally. I understand. And I am willing to talk to you about it more. We do have choices in life; they're just choices that we have not freely willed.
[My note: This guy (or girl) sounds like a real charmer! And totally humble too. (Sarcasm)
Once Calvinists realize they can't manipulate you into Calvinism, they accuse you of something like denying/twisting the Bible or cutting verses out of your Bible or refusing to admit the truth of the Bible. Or of misrepresenting Calvinism, even if you use quotes right from their Calvinist heroes. Or of being unhumble for not submitting to God's "sovereignty," which is strange because if Calvinism is true then it's God's fault that we're not submitting to His sovereignty. Or of claiming that you saved yourself ... that you're stronger than God ... that you're in control instead of Him ... that you're smarter or better than others for choosing God when others didn't.
Manipulating and shaming others are essential tactics in Calvinism, along with twisting Scripture. Because if they didn't do this stuff - if they just let people just read and understand the Bible as it was plainly written - there would be almost no Calvinists. Calvinism needs Calvinists to teach other Christians how to "find" Calvinism in the Bible. Because you wouldn't find it on your own. Calvinism is little more than a religious cult.
And I found at least 3 instances in that Reddit post when RadCT refuses to read an article shared with him, coming up with some lame excuse for why he won’t. Yet he has the nerve to lecture others on his views, as if everyone should listen to and learn from him, as if he is the source of all biblical wisdom. Very teachable and humble! (Sarcasm)
And never accept a Calvinist's offer to help you understand the Bible better. Do not open the door to demonic lies.
And notice how he used the lame Calvinist tactic of “Calvinism is hard to take emotionally.” They'll say things like, "It was hard for me at first, too, like wearing a scratchy wool sweater ... these things don't sound good to us, with our limited understanding of things ... but you'll get there if you just stick with it, and eventually that scratchy wool sweater will become warm, cozy, and comforting ... we don't have to like it, we just have to accept it ... etc." This is to automatically frame anyone’s resistance to Calvinism as an emotional reaction. And if (as the Calvinists say) the resistant non-Calvinist would just "give it time" and stick with it, letting other Calvinists lead them through the Calvinist theology books, they would eventually "see the truth and accept it."
This is manipulation, making it sound like the only reason we don’t accept what they teach is that it doesn't "feel good" to us, as if we're letting our feelings lead us, instead of it being that we believe Calvinism contradicts the Bible. They want you to think you're just having an emotional reaction to it, that way they can make you feel like you have no real reason to oppose it, shaming you into ignoring the "red flags" so that you simply accept it as "truth" - "truth" that you just don't fully understand yet but will someday if you just stick with it and trust what they're telling you.
As my Calvinist pastor preached one day about his Calvinist view of predestination: "There are only three possible responses you can have to this 'biblical truth' [he frames it as 'biblical truth']: to ignore it, to get angry about it, or to accept it."
Notice what's missing? To disagree with it. Because, as he says, "if we disagree with this then we are disagreeing with the Bible."
Calvinists will make you feel like you're the problem, not them or their theology. That's what they're really saying when they say things like "We know these are hard teachings to accept."
Yeah, and do you know why they're so hard to accept? Because the alarm bells are going off in our spirit. Because what they teach contradicts what God plainly, clearly, consistently said in His Word, it turns Him into a monster, it flips the gospel on its head, and it destroys the work Jesus did on the cross to make salvation available for all men.
Do not let Calvinists talk you into ignoring the red flags, into ignoring the nudges the Holy Spirit is giving you as He tries to warn you that something isn't right with what they're saying. If you do this - if you allow Calvinists to fill your head with their ideas, to reinterpret God's Word for you, to "show" you "proof" of Calvinism in the Bible - then you will eventually numb the convictions of the Spirit and become unable to discern lies from truth. And before you know it, you'll be the next RadCT, arguing online that it's okay for God to cause sin because it's not sin for Him and that God can cause injustices because He sees them as just. People don't get to that level of hardened, dogmatic Calvinism in one fell swoop. They get there bit by bit, nibble by nibble, by letting other Calvinists teach them how to slowly replace God's clear truths with Calvinism's unclear, contradictory, unbiblical lies. (Most Calvinists will admit that they became Calvinists after reading the works of Calvinist theologians, not just by reading the Bible itself.)
And if you do allow this to happen, just remember this: You chose it first. By choosing to ignore the Spirit, by entertaining lies and dabbling in heresy, by not knowing Scripture well enough for yourselves, by trusting another human being too much and holding them up as a "spiritual giant of the faith," by taking what they say as "gospel truth" without checking for yourselves.
Don't let this happen. Be a Berean and diligently check Scripture for yourselves, in context, to see if what they're saying is what God says too.]
On a different but similar track …
From a Soteriology 101 post called "Frustrated by the state of the world?", non-Calvinist Fromoverhere wrote: “But in Calvinism, yesterday’s abortion was what God wanted or it would not have happened. Simple question to you Calvinists: Were yesterday’s abortions in your city what God wanted”?
The Calvinist Filemon responds with “The answer is Yes, though what God conceived for men to do was written is His Law and in His precepts which are found in the Bible, and everything is righteous and virtuous. Now using the negative logic, I ask you, ‘If God hadn’t wanted this abortion to happen, do you think it would ever have happened?’ And as evil as it is, the abortion was no more evil than the death of Jesus, which was the worst sin ever committed on earth. And I ask you, ‘Who did plan this death and who controlled everything and everybody to fulfil His plan?’"
[My note: "Everything is righteous and virtuous." And he says this after confirming that Calvinists believe that God wanted the abortions to happen. Is he saying that everything God wrote in His law is righteous and virtuous, which would then mean that when God (Calvinism's god) causes people to disobey His law then he is causing unrighteousness and unvirtuous actions? Or is he saying that the abortions are considered righteous and virtuous, at least in God's eyes? Either way, there it is again: the Calvinist belief that wrongs are right in God's eyes, that it's okay for God to cause sin and evil. Horrifying!
I think one big problem with Calvinism is that it combines God's desires/Will with His plans, mixing them into one thing. In their minds, if something happened then it's because God wanted it, planned it, willed it, and caused it. In Calvinism, everything God wants to happen He plans to happen, and so everything that happens is because He wanted it and planned it. This is why they can say that God "wanted" abortions to happen, that it was His plan. Because they think God's plans/desires are always carried out and that everything that happens is because He wanted/planned it.
But this is not how it works out in the Bible. God does have plans, and eventually His plans will get done, but it's usually by working our actions and decisions (our obedience or disobedience) into His plans. Oftentimes, He gives us a choice of the part we play in His plans, whether we obey or disobey. And if we disobey, He can either work with the disobedience or find someone else who will obey. Either way, His plans will get done, in one way or another, but we can miss out on being a part of it.
But His desires/Will are generally something else. These are things He wants us to do and calls us to do but that He doesn't always cause to happen (unlike His plans, which will eventually happen). He says that His Will is that no one perishes. He says His will is that we take care of orphans and widows, that we are joyful, that we pray continuously, etc. But these things don’t always happen because He gave us the ability to choose between obeying or disobeying. And if we disobey, it’s not because He wanted/planned/caused us to disobey. He told us what He wanted us to do, and He gave us the choice to do it or not. And so there will be things He wants that doesn't happen and things that happen that He doesn't want. But He can weave it all into His plans.
So while God's plans always get done, in one way or another, His desires/Will for our individual lives doesn't always get done because He leaves that up to us.
Rhutchin (the resident Calvinist there) affirms Filemon: “Even Fromoverhere knows that God is always present at every abortion and has the power to stop any abortion at any time. It is God’s choice to have the abortion continue, and because God chooses for the abortion to continue, we say that the abortion was God’s will. Calvinists say that God made this decision before He created the world so that it was part of His decree to create.”
[My note: See, there it is: The Calvinist idea that because it happened (the abortion) then it means it was God's Will, because His Will/desires/plans always happens and nothing can happen that He didn't Will/desire/plan (in Calvinism).
Rhutchin (Calvinists) regularly says things like "God lets it happen" or "God knew what would happen but chose not to stop it." A normal person would hear this and think he means that God simply lets people decide for themselves to sin and that God just allows it to happen. This is what Calvinists want you to think they are saying, to trap you. But what they really mean (and what Rhutchin has confirmed many times) is that "God predestined it to happen, and He 'allows' His predestined plans to be carried out by causing them to happen, by not stopping what He predestined," as if something different could have happen when it couldn't have (in Calvinism). It's insanity. And so deceptive!
They are constantly trying to sprinkle "free-will" into what they say, when they don't mean it at all! I've said this before, but you need to think of Calvinists as pathological liars who couldn't tell the truth if they tried (because they can't recognize truth anymore), who twist everything, who have secret meanings for everything, who hide what they really mean (the things that contradict the Bible) underneath many layers of biblical-sounding ideas and verses, and who always tell you only a fraction of the story (the part they think you will agree with). They always mean something different than what they say, trying to trick you and trap you, to get you to bite onto the nice juicy worm that's hiding the big sharp hook, to deceive you and reel you into Calvinism slowly, bit by bit.
I'm not kidding here, and I'm not exaggerating. And the scariest part is: They really believe this stuff. That's what makes them so convincing. Because they have convinced themselves - allowed Satan to convince them - of their scripture-twisting, gospel-contradicting, God-dishonoring lies.
Do you really think God needs the help of Calvinist theologians - thousands of years after He wrote His Word - to explain to us what He supposedly "meant to say" (which contradicts the plain, commonsense understanding of what He actually said)? Did He intend to be so unclear that we would need to spend months/years with Calvinist books and Calvinist theologians and Calvinist pastors in Calvinist classes learning the "hidden layers" underneath (and in contradiction to) what He actually said? Is God that unclear? Is He that deceptive? Does His Word not stand on its own?
Do you realize what's really at stake here? Calvinism is not a "deeper understanding of the gospel." It is a completely different gospel! A different God, a different Jesus, a different way to heaven!]
My reply to them (keeping it simple): “Filemon and Rhutchin, Wow! If I was walking next to you right now, I’d be stepping aside, afraid that the earth would open up and swallow you both whole.”
