Exposing Calvinism: My Comment about Sin and God's Will

I left several comments on the most recent Soteriology 101 post (“Frustrated by the state of the world?”).  And since they took me awhile to write, I wanted to copy them here to save them and to get some extra use out of them.  I will spread them out over several posts because they are long.  These comment are in response to different comments others left.  I added small corrections/changes to better explain and clarify what I meant.  (If you get a chance, read the whole comment section.  It’s really interesting to see what Calvinist thinking is like.  Rhutchin and Roland and Filemon are Calvinists.  I think everyone else who commented, as of May 1, 2021, is a non-Calvinist.)

This started with a comment by non-Calvinist, Fromoverhere: “If, for [Calvinists], all the evil in the world that happens is what God wants … then what is your point about anything?”

Rhutchin (the long-term resident Calvinist) listed some verses about God commanding people to oppose evil, and then said, "If there were no evil, these verses would mean nothing."

Here is my reply:

It seems to me that Fromoverhere isn't denying that there's evil in the world or that God wants us to oppose evil.  He's saying that it's pointless for Calvinists to believe that God wants/causes/predestines all evil but then to still be bothered by evil and to act like we have a choice about it.

And Rhutchin's saying that Calvinists oppose evil because God commands us to.  Yet, whenever evil happens, it's because Calvi-god had a secret, unspoken command (which contradicted his spoken, revealed command) where he actually wanted the person to commit the evil he commanded us not to do.  Because he's pleased by it and gets glory from it.  Schizophrenic!

So Calvi-god ordains (preplans, controls) all that we do, whether we sin or obey, and then he controls/causes all people's reactions to what happens, either making them horrified by evil or happy with it or whatever.  What a silly, pointless charade by Calvi-god and Calvinists, acting as if anything we feel or think makes any difference at all.  If we have no ability to have our own thoughts or feelings because Calvi-god controls it all, then it makes no difference at all how we respond to evil, because it's all preplanned and controlled by Calvi-god and we're simply acting out the role we have no choice about.

[Why are you even here on this website, Rhutchin and Filemon, arguing for Calvinism - when Calvi-god created this website for his glory and pleasure, when he created us to oppose Calvinism for his glory and pleasure, and when we are just doing what he's causing us to do?  We have no control over our thoughts about Calvinism or the fact that we speak against it.  So why are you here opposing us, opposing what Calvi-god predestined for his glory?

Oh wait, let me guess: You have no control either over what you do.  Calvi-god predestined for you to oppose us.  He's forcing you to leave comments on this site, for his pleasure and glory.  Right?  And he predestines what people think when they read our comments and yours.  And he's already predestined their destinies and they are just acting out their prewritten roles, so it really makes no difference what they think when they read this stuff.  It's all been predestined.  We do not control our own thoughts or decisions.  Whether we oppose or support Calvinism makes no difference at all because both are equally glorifying to Calvi-god, and it all happens exactly as he planned it, and it won't change anyone's destiny because their destinies have all been preplanned too.

So really, if you left this site, never leaving any more comments in support of Calvinism, it would have the exact same effect on what happens in the end: Nothing!  No effect!  It all works out the same, with or without you.  What’s been predestined will happen and everything that happens has been predestined, so why should anyone bother trying to do anything different at all or to influence anything?  Makes life and everything we do a little pointless, doesn't it?]

In Calvinism, those verses Rhutchin listed mean nothing because whether we oppose or celebrate evil has already been predestined ... and because Calvi-god controls our thoughts and feelings and actions ... and because he has two conflicting Wills where he regularly commands one thing but wants/causes the opposite to happen (whatever happens - obedience or disobedience - was his Will, so it doesn't really matter which one we "choose") ... and because evil is no different than good in Calvi-god's eyes (he predestined both for his glory and pleasure).

I think a big problem in Calvinism is that they conflate God's Will/desires with His plans (mixing them into one thing).  God's ultimate plans will happen, in one way or another.  He can use anything and everything to work His plans out, working our decisions (our self-chosen obedience or our self-chosen disobedience) into His plans.  If someone refuses to obey, He can find someone else who will, or He can work the disobedience into His plans.  He's got many ways of eventually getting His plans accomplished, and He does this with and through mankind.  Such as, His plan was to get the Israelites out of Egypt and into Canaan, and His desire was to get that first generation into Canaan.  But the first group rebelled and grumbled against Him on the journey, and so He let them die off in the desert and took the next generation into Canaan.  His desire (one of His desires) did not get accomplished because that first generation refused to obey Him, but His ultimate plan got accomplished because He found a way to work it out, in spite of their disobedience.  And He didn't have to control the people's actions or thoughts to do this.  He let them decide what to do, and then He worked it into His plans.  They chose to rebel, and so He simply bypassed them and used the next generation to fulfill His plans, because they were willing to obey.  He will work His ultimate plans out one way or another, but we can miss out on them if we choose to disobey.  He lets us choose our part in the plans He wants to accomplish.  If we reject Him and disobey, He'll either work our disobedience into His plans or He'll find someone else who will obey.  Either way, His plans will get done.

But God's Will/desires are another thing.  These are things He wants to have happen, but He doesn't always force it or cause it to happen.  He leaves it up to us, for the most part, to either do or not do these things.  He wills that all people are saved, that orphans and widows are taken care of, that we do good works to silence the ignorant talk of foolish people, that we rejoice and are thankful and pray always, etc.  But do these things always happen?  No!  Because He doesn't always cause His Will/desires to happen.  His ultimate plans will get done eventually, but He allows us to either do or not do what He Wills/desires.

[And this is something Calvinists simply cannot accept: that an all-powerful God would allow people to have a real choice, that He would allow us to affect what happens in our lives and on this earth.  They think that since God is all-powerful, then He must use His power all the time to control everything, even sin and evil and our thoughts/desires/choices, or else He can't be God.

But I say it's a very dangerous thing to tell God how God has to act in order to be God!  If He's God - all-powerful and sovereign above all - then shouldn't He get to decide how to use His sovereignty and power?  And if He wants to voluntarily limit His power, to allow people to make real choices that have real consequences, then "Who are you, O Calvinist, to talk back to God?  Doesn't the Potter have the right to make people with free-will, if He wants to?"  He is so powerful and wise and sovereign that He can work all things into His plans, even things He doesn't preplan, cause, or want.  Or are you going to say that He’s not that powerful, wise, and sovereign?]

Calvinists conflate His plans with His Will/desires, lumping it all into one thing.  And therefore, they conclude that everything He wants/wills will happen because He always does what He plans (as if His plans are the same thing as His Will/desires), and that everything that happens is because God planned it, wanted it, willed it.  Not true!  God will work His plans out eventually, but not everything happens because God planned it, wanted it, or willed it.  He leaves it up to us to do what He wills/wants, and He allows us to work with Him in getting His plans done or to oppose His plans (and then pay the price).

Just because God works His plans out (biblical) does not mean that everything that happens is because God planned it (Calvinism, unbiblical).  Just because God wills/wants things to happen (biblical) doesn't mean that everything that happens is because God willed/wanted it (Calvinism, unbiblical).  In these things, Calvinist reasoning goes like this:  Since all monkeys are animals, then all animals must be monkeys.  And this causes a lot of problems in their theology.  A lot of contradictions they can't fix or explain away.

Regarding evil and sin, Calvinism says that God has two wills that contradict each other: a revealed one where He commands us to not do something and an unspoken one where He commands us (predestines/decrees/ordains us) to do it.  And they think this is perfectly okay ... because "God is sovereign.  Who are you, O man, to talk back to God?"  (And they think that we can really be held accountable for breaking His spoken commands when we are really just following His unspoken commands by committing the disobedience He predestined/decreed/ordained us to do.  Crazy!)  But this is not a logical or acceptable response for saying that God commands one thing but causes the opposite, that God causes us to do the very sins He told us not to do (and then He punishes us for it).  Calvinism does far too much damage to God's character and the gospel to be able to fix it with a response that basically amounts to "Just shut up and accept what we teach you!"

God does not have two conflicting wills (which would make Him two-faced, deceptive, unreliable, untrustworthy, unjust, etc.).  But, as Pastor Tony Evans says (see this sermon: How to Get Your Prayers Answered), He does have a conditional Will and an unconditional one.  God has an unconditional Will, things He's planned that He will work out, with or without our cooperation: He created the world, was born as a human, died on the cross, will redeem the world in the end and do away with evil, will make us all stand before the judgment seat, chose Israel to bring Jesus into the world, etc.  These are plans that are not conditional on us.

But He also has a conditional Will, things that He wants to do but He leaves it up to us to bring it about, to obey or disobey, to accept or reject.  He wants all people to be saved, but He leaves it up to us to accept or reject Jesus.  He wants all people to seek Him and He gives us enough evidence of Himself to show He's real, but He leaves it up to us to want/seek Him or to go our own way.  He wants us to be thankful ... to pray ... to obey .... to take care of the less fortunate ... to share the gospel, etc., but He leaves all that up to us, etc.  The blessings and effects of obedience are conditional on our decisions, on what we choose to do.  And the choice is ours.  He doesn't force us to pick what we do.  He can take whatever we do and work it into His plans, for good, but He doesn't preplan/force us to do what we do.  This is, biblically, how God is sovereign over all but we are still responsible for our choices.

Whereas the Calvinist's version of sovereignty (God ordains, preplans, causes, controls all things, even sin and evil) makes God a liar (for saying He wants us to do one thing when He really wants/preplanned that we do the opposite) and wicked (He's no different than Satan: causing evil, deceiving people, wanting people in hell) and cruel (creating most people specifically for hell, pretending to give them a chance to be saved when they have no chance) and unjust (for punishing us for the things He made us do, things we had no control over).

If Calvinists want to worship and defend that kind of god then that's tragic for them.  Because it's not the God of the Bible.  (And if it's not the God of the Bible, then I wonder who it really is?)