UGW #9c: Considering Other Prayer Verses

Understanding God's Will #9c:

When you isolate a verse, such as Mark 11:22-24 (about getting what we ask for if we believe we'll get it) from other Scripture, it’s easy to misunderstand it.  It’s easy to make the Mark passage a “name it and claim it in faith” verse when you do not take into account the rest of Scripture.  And this then causes me to focus more on my faith’s ability to make things happen and less on drawing near to God and immersing myself in Him and His Word.  After all, if my faith is enough to get it done, how much do I need Him?

Yes, Jesus says “whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.”  And I still haven’t fully grasped what He meant by that.  But I think that it is best understood when we take a look at all of Scripture.  Verses cannot be taken separately.  The Word is not like trail mix, where we can pick and choose the raisins and chocolate, leaving the icky nuts behind.  It’s like a cake, where all the ingredients work together to form the end product.  All the ingredients work together to make the final product just right.  And so we cannot pick and choose the verses we want and leave the others out.  We need to take it and study it as a whole.  They all work together. 

            
Therefore, in order to best understand Mark 11:22-24, it would be wise to do a quick review on other “prayer verses” (ones we’ve already looked at) and see what it adds to our understanding of how and when God answers.  And doing this helps me see some of the pitfalls in the “name it and claim it” interpretation of the Mark verses and the dangers of isolating them.   

            
1 John 5:14-15:  “This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.  And if we know that he hears us - whatever we ask - we know that we have what we asked of him.”

            
James 4:2-3:  “... You do not have, because you do not ask God.  When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures.”

            
John 14:13-14:  “And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father.  You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.”

            
Yes, this last one sounds like the Mark 11 passage:  Ask for anything and Jesus will do it.  Wow, that sounds great!  What an awesome power - to be able to get anything we ask for.  But!  I don’t think that’s what Jesus really meant.  And we have to look at all the verses together to know what He really means.  (And there are even more verses that I am not looking at here.  It would be a great study if you want to explore it for yourself.) 

            
I cannot just ask for what I want and believe that my faith will make it happen.  Because it also says that it has to be in line with His Will.  Sure, we can ask for whatever, but He “hears” the things that are in line with His Will.  And when He hears the prayers that are in line with His Will, we can be confident that He will do them.  But the point is, something He waits for us to ask for the things He wills before He does the things He wills.  He has chosen to work with and through mankind to get His Will done!  Which means that if we don't ask, we won't necessarily get the things He's willed for us.    



[And this is where Calvinism disagrees and goes wrong.  Calvinism thinks God always causes what He wills and that everything that happens is because God willed it.  God's Will always happens and is the only that thing happens, and we can do nothing differently.  

But the Bible repeatedly shows God hinging His plans on mankind to a large degree and man having a real choice about obeying or disobeying.  (Find me one verse that says God has predestined whether we obey or disobey, that He has predestined and controls our choices for us.  One clear verse, not a mish-mosh of half-verses taken out of context or a verse taken from a "poetic" book of the Bible.)  

Calvinism is simply wrong when it comes to how God carries out His Will.

Besides, if Calvinism is true that everything that happens is God's Will then why do we need to ask for His Will to be done as 1 John 5:14-15 shows us.  Could His Will not get done if we don't ask for it?  

In Calvinism, we couldn't even ask for anything outside of His Will anyway because there are no "alternative options" outside of His Will.  His Will doesn't ever not happen.  Everything that happens is His Will and it's the only thing that can happen.  Plus, even our asking for things outside of His Will would be His Will because God controls even our thoughts and prayers, according to Calvinism.  What a mess!]  



And those verses also say that we won’t get what we ask for if we have selfish motives, and that we have to ask in Jesus’ name, for the glory of God.  But this is not a blank check.  We can’t just add “in Jesus’ name, Amen” to the ends of our prayers and expect God to give us what we ask for. 

            
So what does it mean to pray in Jesus’ name?  I like to think of it this way.  Let’s say that I work for a company, and I go to an office supply store to get some supplies that my boss wants.  Now, I am going there in his place - in his name - to get the things that he wants.  As long as it’s on his list and in line with his needs and what he wants for his office, then it’s in his name.  But if I don’t ask for it, I won’t get it.  And as soon as I ask for something off of the list - something that I want, that I think he wants, or that’s out of line with what the office needs - I am asking in my own name.  And I can’t put it on his tab or claim that it’s his Will.

            
When we consider all of these verses together, it weeds out a lot of the requests that we make.  How many of our requests are in our own names, for our own desires and purposes?  Even prayers for healing or blessings can come from our own desires and our own thoughts of what we need.  God doesn’t promise to give us whatever we want, but He will give us what He wants for us, when we ask (and oftentimes not until we ask).  And God often has important things to teach us during the wait and during our struggles with unanswered prayers - if only we will take our eyes off of our requests and put them on Him.        

            



[Now, I know that I have just spent time talking about how you can’t just “believe and then you will get whatever you ask for.”  And I use this mostly for when we try to convince ourselves that God will give us whatever we want.  But I have read other people’s stories about their prayers being answered, and I do have to wonder if there really is something more to the “you will get it if you believe” verse.  While we can’t claim whatever we want, if God has given you a deep assurance that He has indeed answered a prayer in a certain way – even if you have no outward proof – then believe Him with all you’ve got in you. 

            
I wonder if “belief and faith” are so important in getting what we asked for because it’s like God is giving us a choice to accept His answer or to reject it.  And we accept it by choosing to believe in it.  Once again, we need to be sensitive to how God might alter our requests, and we need to give Him the right to answer as He will.  But if He has given you an answer in the very depths of your spirit, then believe Him and wait for it.  Because giving into despair and doubt and fear might just prevent His answer from becoming a reality in your life – because it gives the devil greater ground in your thoughts, your heart, and your life.  And if you don’t believe, you will not take the necessary steps to reach for the answer that God has laid out for you. 

            
I don’t really know what to the think about all of this; I am still learning about prayer.  But if God says that our belief and faith matter in getting our prayers answered – the ones that are in line with His Will - then we need to take Him seriously.  Just something to think about.]



Now for more on Calvinism and prayer:

Let's go back really quick to James 4:2-3:  “... You do not have, because you do not ask God.  When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures.”

How can this be reconciled with Calvinism, which says that God's predestined everything and is the cause of everything and that nothing different could have happened?

How could we get or not get something based on our motives and on whether or not we asked?  Because, in Calvinism, God would be the cause of our motives and whether or not we asked.  

But this verse clearly sounds like we choose whether or not to pray and that we have an impact on if our prayers are answered or not.  This would be the clearest, simplest way to understand it, which lines up with example after example in the Bible.

But Calvinists, to fit it into their idea of "God preplans/controls everything," view it this way: "Well, God ordains the means (our prayers) as well as the ends (the answers to our prayers)," meaning that God's predestined our prayers just like He's predestined the answers.

But is this what the verse is saying?  Or do you have to do an awful lot of twisting to get the verse to say that?  

Instead of just reading verses as they are, Calvinists embellish and twist and alter verses to get them to fit with Calvinism, and it flies in the face of example and example of how God works in the Bible.

An honest Calvinist rendition of this verse should read:

“... You do not have, because you do not ask God, because God predestined you would not ask Him because He didn't want you to have it anyway.  When you ask as God predestined you to ask, you do not receive because you ask with wrong motives that God pre-determined you would have so that He could deny you the thing He predestined you would are ask for, the things God ordained you to want to spend on your God-ordained selfish pleasures.” 

Does this make any sense?

I didn't think so.

Why would God predestine you to ask for things He wouldn't grant?  Does God predetermine that you would have selfish desires and wrong motives, that you ask for things with wrong motives (which He gave you) so that you can spend them on your selfish desires (which He gave you) ... and then after causing you to have wrong motives and selfish desires and causing you to ask for selfish things, He doesn't grant what you asked for anyway, supposedly because of your selfish desires and wrong motives (which He gave you)?  Why would He preplan/ordain/cause people to ask for things He was never going to give them, and then make it sound like it was their fault He wouldn't grant it when it was really all because of Him, supposedly for His glory (the reason He does all things, according to the Calvinists)?

Calvinism and genuine biblical prayer do not go together!

I truly have to wonder how effective Calvinists can be in prayer (or in spiritual warfare) when they think they are just a puppet on a string, that they have no real responsibility and no effect because God has preplanned it all and causes it all to happen just the way He wants it to happen.  

What better way for Satan to get Christians to roll over and play dead than to convince them that nothing they do really matters anyway!



Here is something I wrote in another post about Calvinism and prayer:

I read a quote from a Calvinist once where they said something like "We have to pray because there are some things God has determined to give us only when we pray for them."

Think about this one for just a moment.

A Calvinist believes that Calvi-god controls and causes everything that happens, down to our thoughts.  Everything that happens is his Will, which was predestined from before time began.  And nothing different can happen than what he willed.

But ... your prayer makes a difference!?!  There are things Calvi-god willed for you that you won't get if you don't pray for them!?!

Do you hear how contradictory that is!?!

Of course, I can believe that prayer makes a difference because I believe that God responds to us, that we make real choices that have real consequences, that God is in control over everything (holding it all in His hands) but that He has chosen to not actively control everything, including our decisions and thoughts and actions, and that He works His Will out in cooperation with mankind, through our obedience and prayers (and if we choose to disobey, He'll work our disobedience into His plans because He is wise enough to work with whatever we dish out).

So I can believe that our prayers matter and make a difference and that we won't get certain things if we don't pray for them and that God's Will doesn't always get done if we don't seek it, pray for it, obey in it, etc., because I believe the Bible clearly teaches that God gave mankind a certain level of free-will and real responsibility.

(To be clear, the things He Wills - His plans - will eventually get done through obedient people, but we can refuse to be part of it and we can choose to disobey.  We can miss out on it.  But He will eventually find someone else to be part of getting His Will done.  So His Will does get done, but it’s our choice to be part of it or not.  Our choices are ours, and they have a real effect on our lives and eternities, with real consequences.)

But a Calvinist cannot say that prayer makes a difference without contradicting their own theology.  Because if God wills you to get something, you'll get it.  If He doesn't, you won't.  And if He wills you don't get something, no amount of prayer will change that.  If He wills you to get something, your lack of prayer won't change it.  In fact, if you don’t pray, it would have to be because Calvi-god willed that you don’t pray.  So how could he have something he wanted to give you if you had prayed when he is the very reason you didn’t pray?

Do you see what a tangled web this is?

If it’s all been predetermined from before time began and if everything that happens does so exactly the way that Calvi-god planned it and causes it to happen, then there is no “alternative, could-have-happened” plan.  Not in Calvinism.  Because then that would be Calvi-god making plans against his plans.  (And yet Calvinists do say that God does indeed decree that people go against His decrees.  And they don't see anything wrong with this or how twisted, schizophrenic, self-defeating, and untrustworthy this makes Him.)

So then why this warning about the necessity of prayer?  From a Calvinist?

If a Calvinist believes that prayer makes a difference, they are essentially denying their view of God's sovereignty (that Calvi-god predestines, controls, causes everything that happens).  To say that his Will could fail to get done because of our failure to pray is a denial of Calvi-god's sovereign control and predestined Will.  To say that we affect what happens with our prayers is to say that we have some sort of influence over what happens, apart from Calvi-god's control/Will.  And this is a clear, horrible violation of Calvinism's fundamental beliefs.

"Oh, but God ordained that prayer is how we get the things He willed for us," they say.  Basically, that God preplanned that we would pray in order to get the things He willed for us.

Okay, but then why bother warning us of the need to pray if God's already predestined it?  As if we have a choice?  

If it is certain to happen, regardless of what we think or do or our efforts to obey, then it will happen, regardless of what we think or do or our efforts to obey.  And so we don't need to concern ourselves with anything or try to do anything because everything's already been planned and God will cause everything that happens and everything that happens is "His Will," whatever we do.

When a Calvinist - who believes everything's been predestined and that God controls all that happens - warns you of the need to pray, try replying like this, "So then what happens if I don't pray?"  And see what they say.

Honestly, the only answer they can give to be consistent with Calvinism is "Then I guess it's God's Will that you don't pray, for His glory and plans."

If they try to convince you of the need to pray, as if it has some effect on what happens, then they are contradicting their view of God’s “sovereignty” and of everything being predetermined by God.

Calvinism essentially leads to a dead faith, fruitless and impotent.

[If a Calvinist preacher tells you that you need to tithe or join a small group or help in a ministry, wouldn’t it be fun to answer “I can’t.  God predestined that I wouldn’t do it, for His glory”?  Wouldn't it be interesting to throw eggs at the Calvinist pastor's house or to eat his lunch right out from underneath him, and say, "God predestined it for His glory," and watch how they reply, how much they blame you for what you chose to do?  

If a Calvinist complains about you questioning or disagreeing with Calvinism, simply tell them "God 'ordained' that I fight against Calvinism, for His glory.  I have no control over it."  And see how non-Calvinistic they can be!]

For the posts in this series, see the "Understanding God's Will" label in the sidebar (or find the original series, without the Calvinism info, by clicking here).