How do you answer such Calvinist nonsense?
Some of the things Calvinists say are such utter nonsense that you are left scratching your head, trying to figure out how to respond to someone who would say something so illogical. (These are just a few that are on my mind right now.):
1. Someone quoted a popular Calvinist (can't remember which one) who said something like this: "We can't assume that God will give us something we don't pray for if it's something He's decided to give us only if we pray for it."
And I say "Say what!?!"
The thing is ... yes, I believe that there are things God has determined to give us only if we pray for them and that if we don't pray for them, we won't get them. This is biblical.
But I get to believe this because I believe in free-will, that we have the right and responsibility to make real choices that have a real effect on our lives, that God doesn't control every decision we make or cause us to do what we do, but that He lets us make decisions and face the consequences of our decisions. I get to believe this because I believe the Bible teaches that free-will and God's sovereignty go hand-in-hand.
But a Calvinist can't believe this because it completely contradicts their own theology.
They believe that God micromanages every decision and thought we have, that He causes us to do everything we do, that we can only do what He's predetermined we do, and that everything happens according to how God has preplanned things to go.
So then, this quote on prayer defeats Calvinism from the very beginning from multiple angles:
#1: It's saying that you have to pray for what God's predetermined you would get. And this means we have to make a choice to pray. And if we have to choose to pray, it means we can choose to not pray. Which brings us right back to free-will, to the fact that we get a choice!
#2: If we don't get a choice - if God's predetermined whether we will pray or not pray, whether we will get the thing or not get it - then it's pointless to instruct us to pray for it. Whatever's going to happen has already been determined and nothing can change it (if Calvinism is true), and so then this Calvinist is not affecting anything by instructing us of the need to pray. It's a pointless, useless warning to pray. And prayer itself, if everything is planned out by God and nothing can change or affect His plans, is a meaningless formality, completely unnecessary.
#3: If God's preplanned to give us something and if everything happens according to how He's planned it to happen, then we would be sure to get it because everything happens the way God planned it to happen, according to Calvinists. So then how can our failure to pray for something change God's plans? Did He or did He not plan to give us something? Do His plans happen regardless of what we do (as they believe) or not?
#4: If everything happens the way God planned it and if we don't pray for something which leads to us not getting the thing that God supposedly "ordained" for us ... then it was never "ordained" for us in the first place. Because everything that happens is the way God planned it to be, if Calvinism is true.
Do you see how nonsensical and self-defeating this is for a Calvinist? For them to believe that everything happens the way God planned it to happen and that nothing can change it, but then to say that our prayer affects whether we get the things God planned for us or don't get them?
If God's plans always happen ... then if we don't get something, we were never meant to get it. But if we do get it then we were always meant to get it. And whether we prayed or not should have no effect, if Calvinism is true. (And if Calvinism is true, we don't even really make a choice about whether we pray or not. God makes that choice for us, based on what He's preplanned. So therefore, He can have no other plan in mind than what happens. So it's impossible to not get something that God's "ordained" for us to get.)
So when a Calvinist says that prayer is essential for getting the things God planned for us to get through prayer, they are also saying that God can plan things that don't happen, that we have a real effect on what does or does not happen, that God doesn't "control" everything but that the future is affected by us, and that we have to make choices.
I get to believe that whether or not we pray matters and has an effect because I believe God has given people the choice to include Him or exclude Him, to pray or not pray, to obey or not obey, to make decisions that have real consequences. I believe that He has voluntarily limited how much He uses His "power to control things," that He has chosen to restrain His "control" in order to give people real choices. Because He wanted it to be this way.
But a Calvinist cannot say this without contradicting their own theology.
You know how I would love to respond to a Calvinist who says "We can't assume that God will give us something we don't pray for if it's something He's decided to give us only if we pray for it"?
I'd simply say "And so then what happens if I don't pray?"
They will then be forced to say "Well then, you won't get the things God planned to give you when you pray."
To which I would reply, "Then I guess the future isn't as 'planned' as you think it is."
And if they try to convince me of the need to pray, they are admitting that whether we pray or not is a decision we make and that their efforts to get me to pray might have an effect on how things work out. So therefore, once again, they are saying that things aren't as preplanned as they think they are.
2. This is from a book review I did of someone who left their church over Calvinism too. She was talking about Calvinism with one of the dogmatic Calvinist pastors at her church, when he asked a really stupid question. And this is what I said in my book review about the question he asked:
1. Someone quoted a popular Calvinist (can't remember which one) who said something like this: "We can't assume that God will give us something we don't pray for if it's something He's decided to give us only if we pray for it."
And I say "Say what!?!"
The thing is ... yes, I believe that there are things God has determined to give us only if we pray for them and that if we don't pray for them, we won't get them. This is biblical.
But I get to believe this because I believe in free-will, that we have the right and responsibility to make real choices that have a real effect on our lives, that God doesn't control every decision we make or cause us to do what we do, but that He lets us make decisions and face the consequences of our decisions. I get to believe this because I believe the Bible teaches that free-will and God's sovereignty go hand-in-hand.
But a Calvinist can't believe this because it completely contradicts their own theology.
They believe that God micromanages every decision and thought we have, that He causes us to do everything we do, that we can only do what He's predetermined we do, and that everything happens according to how God has preplanned things to go.
So then, this quote on prayer defeats Calvinism from the very beginning from multiple angles:
#1: It's saying that you have to pray for what God's predetermined you would get. And this means we have to make a choice to pray. And if we have to choose to pray, it means we can choose to not pray. Which brings us right back to free-will, to the fact that we get a choice!
#2: If we don't get a choice - if God's predetermined whether we will pray or not pray, whether we will get the thing or not get it - then it's pointless to instruct us to pray for it. Whatever's going to happen has already been determined and nothing can change it (if Calvinism is true), and so then this Calvinist is not affecting anything by instructing us of the need to pray. It's a pointless, useless warning to pray. And prayer itself, if everything is planned out by God and nothing can change or affect His plans, is a meaningless formality, completely unnecessary.
#3: If God's preplanned to give us something and if everything happens according to how He's planned it to happen, then we would be sure to get it because everything happens the way God planned it to happen, according to Calvinists. So then how can our failure to pray for something change God's plans? Did He or did He not plan to give us something? Do His plans happen regardless of what we do (as they believe) or not?
#4: If everything happens the way God planned it and if we don't pray for something which leads to us not getting the thing that God supposedly "ordained" for us ... then it was never "ordained" for us in the first place. Because everything that happens is the way God planned it to be, if Calvinism is true.
Do you see how nonsensical and self-defeating this is for a Calvinist? For them to believe that everything happens the way God planned it to happen and that nothing can change it, but then to say that our prayer affects whether we get the things God planned for us or don't get them?
If God's plans always happen ... then if we don't get something, we were never meant to get it. But if we do get it then we were always meant to get it. And whether we prayed or not should have no effect, if Calvinism is true. (And if Calvinism is true, we don't even really make a choice about whether we pray or not. God makes that choice for us, based on what He's preplanned. So therefore, He can have no other plan in mind than what happens. So it's impossible to not get something that God's "ordained" for us to get.)
So when a Calvinist says that prayer is essential for getting the things God planned for us to get through prayer, they are also saying that God can plan things that don't happen, that we have a real effect on what does or does not happen, that God doesn't "control" everything but that the future is affected by us, and that we have to make choices.
I get to believe that whether or not we pray matters and has an effect because I believe God has given people the choice to include Him or exclude Him, to pray or not pray, to obey or not obey, to make decisions that have real consequences. I believe that He has voluntarily limited how much He uses His "power to control things," that He has chosen to restrain His "control" in order to give people real choices. Because He wanted it to be this way.
But a Calvinist cannot say this without contradicting their own theology.
You know how I would love to respond to a Calvinist who says "We can't assume that God will give us something we don't pray for if it's something He's decided to give us only if we pray for it"?
I'd simply say "And so then what happens if I don't pray?"
They will then be forced to say "Well then, you won't get the things God planned to give you when you pray."
To which I would reply, "Then I guess the future isn't as 'planned' as you think it is."
And if they try to convince me of the need to pray, they are admitting that whether we pray or not is a decision we make and that their efforts to get me to pray might have an effect on how things work out. So therefore, once again, they are saying that things aren't as preplanned as they think they are.
2. This is from a book review I did of someone who left their church over Calvinism too. She was talking about Calvinism with one of the dogmatic Calvinist pastors at her church, when he asked a really stupid question. And this is what I said in my book review about the question he asked:
"[As I read about her experience with Calvinism taking over her church,] I was particularly struck by the nonsensical question the pastor asked:
"I want to ask you one last question," Joshua focuses on the issue of moral responsibility. "Why do you so strongly insist that ‘one must have a free choice in order to be morally responsible’?" (pg 144)
Oh my goodness … where do I start with this one!?! Umm … let’s see … why do we believe that in order to be justly held accountable for our decisions, we have to have the right to make decisions? Umm … DUH! … because it makes sense! Because it’s logical! Because it’s the only way it can be if God is a truly just God! If we had no choice about sinning, if God caused us to make the choices we do but then held us accountable for them, punishing us for the things He caused … it would make God an unjust, irrational tyrant. Not the loving, righteous, holy, just God of the Bible.
But Calvinism would rather have us accept the nonsense that we have no freedom to make choices, that God causes us to sin and to be unbelievers, but that it’s perfectly fine and just for Him to punish us for it anyway.
This is the kind of nonsensical thinking and irrational reasoning that Calvinists have! Honestly, if I was Amanda [the author of the book I reviewed] standing there talking to Joshua, and he asked me that question, I would probably stare at him in absolute disbelief that he would think that we can be held morally accountable for our choices even if we never had the right to make choices, and I would have to say, "I can't talk to you anymore. There's no point. Not when you're choosing to be this stupid!" And I would turn and walk away. Seriously, if they will cling adamantly to such irrational, illogical, nonsensical garbage then there is no point in trying to reason with them. Not when they insist on clinging to an unreasonable theology!"
3. I read a comment by a Calvinist once who said something exactly like this: "God is love. So everything He does is love. When He causes (note that Calvinists believe God is the cause of everything, even sin) natural disasters, abuse, murder, cancer, wars, and when He causes people to reject Him so that they go to hell ... it's all out of love. Because He is love. So we should see everything that happens as a sign of God's love."
Oh my goodness … where do I start with this one!?! Umm … let’s see … why do we believe that in order to be justly held accountable for our decisions, we have to have the right to make decisions? Umm … DUH! … because it makes sense! Because it’s logical! Because it’s the only way it can be if God is a truly just God! If we had no choice about sinning, if God caused us to make the choices we do but then held us accountable for them, punishing us for the things He caused … it would make God an unjust, irrational tyrant. Not the loving, righteous, holy, just God of the Bible.
But Calvinism would rather have us accept the nonsense that we have no freedom to make choices, that God causes us to sin and to be unbelievers, but that it’s perfectly fine and just for Him to punish us for it anyway.
This is the kind of nonsensical thinking and irrational reasoning that Calvinists have! Honestly, if I was Amanda [the author of the book I reviewed] standing there talking to Joshua, and he asked me that question, I would probably stare at him in absolute disbelief that he would think that we can be held morally accountable for our choices even if we never had the right to make choices, and I would have to say, "I can't talk to you anymore. There's no point. Not when you're choosing to be this stupid!" And I would turn and walk away. Seriously, if they will cling adamantly to such irrational, illogical, nonsensical garbage then there is no point in trying to reason with them. Not when they insist on clinging to an unreasonable theology!"
3. I read a comment by a Calvinist once who said something exactly like this: "God is love. So everything He does is love. When He causes (note that Calvinists believe God is the cause of everything, even sin) natural disasters, abuse, murder, cancer, wars, and when He causes people to reject Him so that they go to hell ... it's all out of love. Because He is love. So we should see everything that happens as a sign of God's love."
Umm ... yeah ...
Would this comfort those burning in hell for eternity because of the unbelief God forced on them!?! Oh, don't worry! Don't be upset! Take heart! This happened because God is love, and He did this to you out of love!
Would this comfort someone abused as a child!?! Oh, it's all okay. You should be delighted because God caused that person to abuse you in order to show you how much He loves you!
My Calvi-ex-pastor gave a sermon where he said everything that happened in your life was God's "Plan A" for your life, even childhood abuse, that He caused it all for His glory, for your good, and because He knew what it would take to humble you.
What the f****!?!
[Not sorry! It's a well-deserved word, and the only one strong enough. NOT SORRY! I'm just sorry I have to bleep out the other four letters. (That's right, there's four bleeped out letters 'cuz the word is fudge. Only I don't mean "fudge.") My goodness, does my blood start boiling every time I think of this!!!]
What kind of a wretched god does Calvinism turn God into!?! A mentally-deranged, psychopathic murderer might "love" his victims with a very sick kind of "love," even while he binds-and-gags them, tortures them, and then cuts them up into tiny pieces to preserve them in his refrigerator.
Would we call that love!?! Yet we are supposed to consider it "loving" when Calvi-god "tortures his victims" with disease and violence and abuse!?! When he binds them in sin and unbelief and puts them in hell for it!?! When he gags those he's predestined to hell, preventing them from calling on him, from wanting him!?!
[I'm not saying God doesn't cause "bad things" sometimes, like natural disasters and wars. I mean, He did this in the Bible at times. But I am saying that not everything that happens is because God planned it. And I'm saying that God definitely doesn't cause us to sin or to be unbelievers. (He might give us the opportunity to act out the sin that's in our hearts so that He can bring it out into the open to deal with it, but He doesn't put the sin in our hearts or cause us to choose sin over obedience. He just gives us the chance to make our choice.) Saying that God causes the things He commands us not to do is far different than saying He sometimes causes things we think are "bad," like a natural disaster. However, I think - more often than not - that God simply allows these "bad" things to happen, the disasters and famines, etc. And that He does so because He hopes they would lead us to seek Him and to obey Him, to get right with Him, and because He knows how to work it into something good. But He does not cause sin and evil and unbelief! Calvi-god does, but the God of the Bible does not! And to accuse Him of this is an affront to God's character and Truth!]
What is the Bible's definition of love anyway? Is it not laying down your life for your brothers? Being a servant-leader? Putting the good of others ahead of ourselves, helping them find the way, the truth, and the life, in order to save their souls? Is this not the kind of love that Jesus came to demonstrate for us?
Yet Calvinism would dare say that God shows His love by causing sin and wickedness and rebellion, by causing people to be unbelievers so that they go to hell!?!
Oh my goodness, the damage they do to God's holy, righteous, loving character, accusing Him of the worst things while excusing it with some sort of frickin' nonsense like "It's all because of love! It's all for His glory!"
God's Word says that God loves all people and that Jesus died for all sins. But Calvi-god only loved the "elect" enough to save them. He sent Jesus to die for their sins only, and no one else's.
God says that He doesn't want anyone to perish, that He wants all people to be saved. But Calvi-god has two wills, you see. One where he says he doesn't want anyone to perish, but a secondary "secret" will where he predestines most people to hell.
God demands that we obey Him and promises to bless us for our obedience. Yet Calvi-god causes people to disobey, preventing them from obeying, and then punishes them for it.
Jesus came to save us from hell. But Calvi-god is glorified by sending most people to hell.
Oh, don't get me started! My blood is boiling!
4. And lastly, one thing Calvinists say to silence people who point out how Calvinism contradicts the Bible and misrepresents God is "Who are you to talk back to God!?! He can do whatever He wants. He is the Potter and you are the clay. So you have no right to talk back to Him, to question the way He does things [the way Calvinists believe He does things, that is]!"
I had never realized the self-defeating nature of this reply before, until I saw a comment someone posted on the anti-Calvinist website, Soteriology 101:
"How can someone 'talk back' to God if we don't have free-will? How can we 'talk back' to God if God Himself causes everything we think, do, and say?" (paraphrased)
Such a simply, yet effective, rebuttal!
Calvinism: A "through the looking glass" theology, full of head-spinning, illogical, contradictory nonsense that leaves you scratching your head and saying "What a load of crap!"
