Comments Against Calvinism
Graceadict (a non-Calvinist) made these comments in a Soteriology 101 post called 5 Reasons Why I Stayed Out of Calvinism (small edits made for clarity):
A few things to remember when talking to a Calvinist:
First off, don’t let yourself get overwhelmed. They will take passages out of context and make it sound like something it is not. Here is a summary statement by a popular Calvinist that sums up much of what they believe and are teaching in Calvinism's TULIP: “When we say God is Sovereign in the exercise of His Love, we mean that He loves who he chooses and God does NOT love everybody.” (Arthur Pink, Calvinist)
#4 Bondage of the Will: According to Calvinism, since you cannot do works to earn your salvation that means you cannot agree you are a sinner or believe the gospel either. They will say faith is a "work," which scripture clearly denies. They will try to convince you about Luther’s book “The Bondage of the Will,” where the end point is essentially that you can’t place your faith in Christ until God regenerates you because your will is in 100% bondage to sin and evil. So, according to them, God must first regenerate you so that you can believe, and then He gives you a special faith to believe. This then leads back to Unconditional Election where only some people get this special faith, and they are already pre-selected. Limited Atonement – since God only loves a few people, Jesus died for only those few people. Irresistible Grace – if you are loved by God like Jacob, God gives you faith (salvation), but not your sister or your brother who are hated by God like Esau, and neither you nor your sister can do anything about your condition. Either you are elected for salvation or elected for damnation. No other way around it.
#5 The major question in Calvinism is not "Do you believe the gospel?" (because, in Calvinism, sometimes Calvi-god gives a temporary "fake" faith to some people to increase their guilt, so Calvinists can never know for sure if Calvi-god really caused them to believe the Gospel or if he only caused them to think they believe the Gospel) ... BUT the major question is "Are you elected for salvation or are you elected for damnation?" That is really the bottom line and the only question that matters.
[Heather's note: And since it's up to Calvi-god to choose them for salvation and they can't do anything about it or have any influence over it ... and since some might be given a "fake faith," where Calvi-god tricks them into thinking they are saved when they aren't ... then no Calvinists can ever be fully assured of their salvation until they die, until and unless they "persevere" in their faith all the way to the end. Talk about "working" for your salvation! And how terrifying for Christians who struggle or backslide at various points throughout their lives, always having to wonder if it proves they are really predestined for hell instead of heaven, and yet there's nothing they can do about it but wait and wonder. Ugh!]
Calvinists often use terms that sound like what non-Calvinists would say, but they are not really saying the same thing at all because they have different definitions for those words. They redefine Foreknowledge to either Fore-love or Predetermine. They redefine World to be only the elect in the world. All = all the elect. Love = God’s general love, giving rain and food to all people, but only having Salvific Love (a salvation kind of love) for the elect. They will say God has 2 wills: His revealed will (where He says He wants all people to be saved) and His “secret will” (where He creates most people for hell, even if He SAID He wanted all people to be saved).
[Heather's note: If Calvinists can convince you that the Bible contains a secret, hidden layer of meaning ... and that there are "secret" definitions for biblical words/ideas that contradict or differ from the Bible's obvious teachings ... and that God can say one thing but mean another because He has some sort of "secret Will" that is the opposite of what He said in His Word ... then they can alter ANYTHING that God has said. And this creates a two-faced god who can't be trusted, who never means what he says or says what he means, who is deliberately deceptive. But this IS the Calvinist god!
And yet how do Calvinists explain this away: "God is God, and we are not. He is sovereign and can do whatever He wants. Who are you, o man, to talk back to Him!?! It's a mystery; we can't understand it all and so we just have to humbly accept it."
Well, if your theology turns God into a deceiver who says one thing but means another, who causes the sin He tells us not to do, who prevents people from believing in Him after commanding them to believe in Him, who tricks people into thinking they have a choice about salvation when they don't, who really does want most people in hell (and who is glorified by it) and never gives them any chance to be saved, and who punishes people for the unbelief and sins HE caused them to commit ... then YOU HAD BETTER UNDERSTAND what you believe and why! You had better be ABSOLUTELY SURE that it's what the Bible CLEARLY teaches! Because if you're wrong - if God doesn't control us and we are responsible for our own beliefs and choices - then you are going to have some horribly offensive-to-God and God-dishonoring beliefs that you are responsible for, accountable for, and that you will have to answer to God for! I would be terrified to "just accept Calvinism," when God's character and the truth of the Gospel is on the line!]
There are a host of terms that Calvinists redefine, and they also have lots of extra-biblical terms that have definitions that are almost correct - 85% accurate, so they sound almost biblical. But the 15% error that is smuggled in distorts many things and changes the meaning completely. Also when things don’t make good sense, they will appeal to “mystery, paradox,” and they will say you have to humble yourself (manipulation!) to accept these mysterious teachings, which in reality are contradicting the plain teaching of the Word of God.
My - Heather's - comment to Graceadict:
Graceadict, Very well written. All of your comments. Like you said, I think appealing to “mystery” creates an “elite class.” And this elite class gets to claim they know the “real truth” and that we – the less intelligent beings – have to come to them to get it. I wonder how may cult leaders operate the same way!
I would add that my Calvi-pastor (ex-pastor, that is, because we left over his Calvinism) not only appeals to mystery, but also highlights how “humble” he is to accept it, making other people feel like the way to be a “proper, good Christian” is to accept his Calvinist teachings “in faith” also, even though we can't really understand it and it doesn't really mesh with what we read in the Bible.
He and other Calvinists say things like ...
“How can it be that God is fully sovereign (by this they mean “controlling all things,” of course) and that men are still held accountable for their actions (the sins that Calvi-god causes them to do)? I don’t know. I can’t fully understand it. Because God alone knows how that works. Who are we to try to peer into the things God keeps from us!?! His ways and understanding are higher than ours. Trying to peer into the mysteries that He keeps for Himself is like trying to be like God. But we don’t need to know how it all works together in order to accept it. God said it, and so we have to accept it. Besides, the Bible teaches both those ideas with no tension, proving that there is no contradiction between them, even though it might look like a contradiction to us with our limited wisdom and knowledge. But someday, in eternity, it will all be clear. Until then, we simply have to accept it, even if we don’t like it or understand it.”
Basically what they are saying is “Don’t question it. Don’t look too deeply at it or try to understand it. Don’t offend God or deny the Bible. We told you this is the truth, and so just accept it. Like good, little Calvinists.”
And this makes people feel like if they question Calvinism’s teachings – which are presented as iron-clad biblical “truths” – then they are unhumble Christians who are offending God and denying His Word. Calvinism is a brilliant cult-like theology, full of shaming, manipulation, altered words and verses, double meanings, the cover-up of what they really mean when they say certain things, etc.
It’s great that Drew (the author of 5 Reasons Why I Stayed Out of Calvinism) thought critically of the things he was hearing from Calvinists, instead of simply being bullied, shamed, and manipulated into “submission,” as I think so many well-meaning Calvinists are. In fact, I think that most Calvinists don’t even realize they are not Calvinists, simply because they haven’t taken the time to really explore the theology they say they believe in.
Anti-Calvinist TS00 adds:
Wow, does that give me flashbacks. Along with everything else you wrote. This is EXACTLY how my former Calvi-pastor seduced thinking people into embracing Calvinism against their better instincts. It is the same ‘trick’ that keeps much of my family still under its grip, even while privately admitting that they do not believe that God only chooses some to save. As you so rightly suggested, they are NOT (consistent) Calvinists, but have been persuaded that they must be Calvinists, due to the authority of some man’s or institution's interpretation of scripture. Add to this the fear of loss of friends, loved ones and community – and that is a real and painful eventuality – and many simply refuse to confront the logical conclusions of their professed theology.
Andyb2015 added:
Heather and TS00, Your comments on your former Calvi-Pastors hit home with me as well. We just fairly recently (January of 2019) had all we could take of Calvi-preaching and left the church we had been attending for 10 years. We heard much of the same illogic, multiple contradictions many times in the very same sermon, and the attitude that if you question their Calvinism and “mysteries” then you don’t have a “high view” of scripture or don’t believe God is sovereign (their definition of sovereignty of course). Even though we left many good friends behind, we are so glad we finally made the move. (He was just beginning to preach on Romans 9, and there was no way we were going to listen to that for the next 8 weeks. Yes, he spent 8 weeks on Romans 9!)
And now here is where a Calvinist, Jtleosala, responds:
A few things to remember when talking to a Calvinist:
First off, don’t let yourself get overwhelmed. They will take passages out of context and make it sound like something it is not. Here is a summary statement by a popular Calvinist that sums up much of what they believe and are teaching in Calvinism's TULIP: “When we say God is Sovereign in the exercise of His Love, we mean that He loves who he chooses and God does NOT love everybody.” (Arthur Pink, Calvinist)
(Notice how Sovereignty trumps God’s moral attribute of Love. Notice how God is NOT loving all of His own creation, people. He can choose to
ignore His essential nature of Love when He creates most of His image-bearers. This is key in Calvinism- and it distorts the true nature of GOD.)
#1 First of all, “predestination” will be made to sound like God
picks a few to be saved while the vast majority are predestined for damnation. Calvinists will say God simply "passes over them" (did not choose them for heaven) … but in reality, Calvinism teaches they are CREATED for that purpose.
However, predestination in the Bible is talking about the ALREADY-saved people, about believers being predestined for something. (My - Heather's - note: Predestination is a biblical concept. But it the Bible, predestination is about those who have chosen to accept Jesus as Lord and Savior being predestined for glory and redemption and to bring God glory and to be more like Christ. It's NOT about God predestining whether we go to heaven or hell. This is a grave misunderstanding for Calvinists, and it distorts their theology and their views of God and the Gospel completely.)
Romans 8:29: For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
The already-saved have a sure DESTINY, and that is to be like Christ.
However, predestination in the Bible is talking about the ALREADY-saved people, about believers being predestined for something. (My - Heather's - note: Predestination is a biblical concept. But it the Bible, predestination is about those who have chosen to accept Jesus as Lord and Savior being predestined for glory and redemption and to bring God glory and to be more like Christ. It's NOT about God predestining whether we go to heaven or hell. This is a grave misunderstanding for Calvinists, and it distorts their theology and their views of God and the Gospel completely.)
Romans 8:29: For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
The already-saved have a sure DESTINY, and that is to be like Christ.
#2 They will take Romans 9 and try and turn it into a proof text
that God loves some people and hates most of the others. Romans 9 is totally
taken out of context by Calvinists. To accurately understand Romans 9, one must go back to the OT and read
what those stories were actually about.
Here is an example:
Rom 9:11-12 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Here is an example:
Rom 9:11-12 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Calvinists will say ”See! God irresistibly loves some and irresistibly hates the vast
majority, so God saves the few and makes the vast majority FOR damnation.” In
Calvinism, ”lost man hates God because God first hated him, and that lost man does not believe in God because God refused to send Jesus for his sins
and refused to give him genuine faith.”
However, Romans 9 is NOT talking about
individual salvation for us. In Romans 9, Israel and God’s Big Plan are in focus. Even in
these verses 11-12, a careful reading shows that the Elder will SERVE the
younger, NOT the elder will be damned and the younger will go to heaven. Calvinists read their own bias into these passages. And they do this with every situation in Romans 9 - reading it through their own preconceived (inaccurate) viewpoint. But we need to always go back to the O.T. where the story is taken
from to understand what is really being said. John 6 and Ephesians chapter 1-2 are also read with those glasses on. But the
context is always ignored by Calvinists.
#3 Calvinism can only survive if a person accepts two false
premises ...
A) That being born in sin means you are like a corpse that cannot see, hear, understand or respond to the gospel in faith. The argument always extrapolates way beyond scripture. Like “Since we cannot earn our salvation by good works that then means we cannot see that we are sinners and trust Christ for our salvation.” This idea is NOT found in scripture but is basic to Calvinism. They say being born in sin equals Total Inability (being totally unable to admit you are a sinner and to trust in Christ.)
B) The next false premise is that “Sovereign” means “meticulous determinism.” They redefine the word “Sovereign” to be something that scripture does NOT support. They claim that meticulous determinism (their idea of "God’s Sovereignty") is required in order for God to be God and for God to be glorified. This ultimately creates a world where there really is no free-will. There are many many problems with that… ultimately that God becomes the author of evil in this worldview. (They will reject the use of the word “author,” but their teaching undeniably makes God the author of sin.)
[Heather's note: Calvinists ignore the way that God Himself has decided to exercise His sovereignty in the Bible - by giving mankind the right to make true and real choices within boundaries and by working our choices into His plans, even our self-chosen sins - and they decide for themselves that for God to be a "sovereign God," He MUST preplan, control, and cause every little thing that happens, even our sins. They push their ideas of God to a point that the Bible doesn't support, all in their effort to sound "humble" and "God-glorifying." But, I have to ask, if their ideas go beyond God's Word and what God says about Himself, are they really being "humble" and "God-glorifying"? Upholding their views over the Bible's clear and consistent teachings?]
A) That being born in sin means you are like a corpse that cannot see, hear, understand or respond to the gospel in faith. The argument always extrapolates way beyond scripture. Like “Since we cannot earn our salvation by good works that then means we cannot see that we are sinners and trust Christ for our salvation.” This idea is NOT found in scripture but is basic to Calvinism. They say being born in sin equals Total Inability (being totally unable to admit you are a sinner and to trust in Christ.)
B) The next false premise is that “Sovereign” means “meticulous determinism.” They redefine the word “Sovereign” to be something that scripture does NOT support. They claim that meticulous determinism (their idea of "God’s Sovereignty") is required in order for God to be God and for God to be glorified. This ultimately creates a world where there really is no free-will. There are many many problems with that… ultimately that God becomes the author of evil in this worldview. (They will reject the use of the word “author,” but their teaching undeniably makes God the author of sin.)
[Heather's note: Calvinists ignore the way that God Himself has decided to exercise His sovereignty in the Bible - by giving mankind the right to make true and real choices within boundaries and by working our choices into His plans, even our self-chosen sins - and they decide for themselves that for God to be a "sovereign God," He MUST preplan, control, and cause every little thing that happens, even our sins. They push their ideas of God to a point that the Bible doesn't support, all in their effort to sound "humble" and "God-glorifying." But, I have to ask, if their ideas go beyond God's Word and what God says about Himself, are they really being "humble" and "God-glorifying"? Upholding their views over the Bible's clear and consistent teachings?]
#4 Bondage of the Will: According to Calvinism, since you cannot do works to earn your salvation that means you cannot agree you are a sinner or believe the gospel either. They will say faith is a "work," which scripture clearly denies. They will try to convince you about Luther’s book “The Bondage of the Will,” where the end point is essentially that you can’t place your faith in Christ until God regenerates you because your will is in 100% bondage to sin and evil. So, according to them, God must first regenerate you so that you can believe, and then He gives you a special faith to believe. This then leads back to Unconditional Election where only some people get this special faith, and they are already pre-selected. Limited Atonement – since God only loves a few people, Jesus died for only those few people. Irresistible Grace – if you are loved by God like Jacob, God gives you faith (salvation), but not your sister or your brother who are hated by God like Esau, and neither you nor your sister can do anything about your condition. Either you are elected for salvation or elected for damnation. No other way around it.
#5 The major question in Calvinism is not "Do you believe the gospel?" (because, in Calvinism, sometimes Calvi-god gives a temporary "fake" faith to some people to increase their guilt, so Calvinists can never know for sure if Calvi-god really caused them to believe the Gospel or if he only caused them to think they believe the Gospel) ... BUT the major question is "Are you elected for salvation or are you elected for damnation?" That is really the bottom line and the only question that matters.
[Heather's note: And since it's up to Calvi-god to choose them for salvation and they can't do anything about it or have any influence over it ... and since some might be given a "fake faith," where Calvi-god tricks them into thinking they are saved when they aren't ... then no Calvinists can ever be fully assured of their salvation until they die, until and unless they "persevere" in their faith all the way to the end. Talk about "working" for your salvation! And how terrifying for Christians who struggle or backslide at various points throughout their lives, always having to wonder if it proves they are really predestined for hell instead of heaven, and yet there's nothing they can do about it but wait and wonder. Ugh!]
Calvinists often use terms that sound like what non-Calvinists would say, but they are not really saying the same thing at all because they have different definitions for those words. They redefine Foreknowledge to either Fore-love or Predetermine. They redefine World to be only the elect in the world. All = all the elect. Love = God’s general love, giving rain and food to all people, but only having Salvific Love (a salvation kind of love) for the elect. They will say God has 2 wills: His revealed will (where He says He wants all people to be saved) and His “secret will” (where He creates most people for hell, even if He SAID He wanted all people to be saved).
[Heather's note: If Calvinists can convince you that the Bible contains a secret, hidden layer of meaning ... and that there are "secret" definitions for biblical words/ideas that contradict or differ from the Bible's obvious teachings ... and that God can say one thing but mean another because He has some sort of "secret Will" that is the opposite of what He said in His Word ... then they can alter ANYTHING that God has said. And this creates a two-faced god who can't be trusted, who never means what he says or says what he means, who is deliberately deceptive. But this IS the Calvinist god!
And yet how do Calvinists explain this away: "God is God, and we are not. He is sovereign and can do whatever He wants. Who are you, o man, to talk back to Him!?! It's a mystery; we can't understand it all and so we just have to humbly accept it."
Well, if your theology turns God into a deceiver who says one thing but means another, who causes the sin He tells us not to do, who prevents people from believing in Him after commanding them to believe in Him, who tricks people into thinking they have a choice about salvation when they don't, who really does want most people in hell (and who is glorified by it) and never gives them any chance to be saved, and who punishes people for the unbelief and sins HE caused them to commit ... then YOU HAD BETTER UNDERSTAND what you believe and why! You had better be ABSOLUTELY SURE that it's what the Bible CLEARLY teaches! Because if you're wrong - if God doesn't control us and we are responsible for our own beliefs and choices - then you are going to have some horribly offensive-to-God and God-dishonoring beliefs that you are responsible for, accountable for, and that you will have to answer to God for! I would be terrified to "just accept Calvinism," when God's character and the truth of the Gospel is on the line!]
There are a host of terms that Calvinists redefine, and they also have lots of extra-biblical terms that have definitions that are almost correct - 85% accurate, so they sound almost biblical. But the 15% error that is smuggled in distorts many things and changes the meaning completely. Also when things don’t make good sense, they will appeal to “mystery, paradox,” and they will say you have to humble yourself (manipulation!) to accept these mysterious teachings, which in reality are contradicting the plain teaching of the Word of God.
Remember at the end of the day, it is a distortion of God’s moral
character - The God of Love, The God of Mercy, The God who shows no partiality to anyone,
The God of Truth who has already communicated clearly. They will lead you to
believe that Sovereignty trumps all of God’s moral character as seen in this
statement: “When we say God is Sovereign in the exercise of His Love, we mean that He
loves who he chooses and God does NOT love everybody.” Arthur Pink, Calvinist
(Heather's note: They will use "God is sovereign" to explain away any horrible mischaracterization of God they come up with.)
My biggest problem with Calvinism is that it distorts the nature of our Glorious God.
(Heather's note: They will use "God is sovereign" to explain away any horrible mischaracterization of God they come up with.)
My biggest problem with Calvinism is that it distorts the nature of our Glorious God.
1. It turns God into a “non-truth telling” being. This God has
His secret will that can totally contradict His revealed will. The Calvin-god
undermines the fact that the God of the Bible is a God of Truth and that He
communicates Truth always. These statements of “mystery” “paradox” and so
called “tension” are nothing more than covering up the fact that they have huge
contradictions with what they are saying about God.
2. It turns God into an “unholy being.” The Calvin-god is the
author of evil… He alone in eternity past predetermined every evil thought and
action that would ever take place. These thoughts and actions did not originate
with the creature but instead originated in the mind of Calvin-god. Universal Divine
Causal Determinism – the way Calvinism defines Sovereignty - creates an “Unholy
being” that is NOT the God of scripture.
3. Calvinism creates a god that is NOT a god of love. The
Calvin-god alone, with no external influences, predetermines, designs and
purposefully creates most men to be hated by Calvin-god himself. He created and
designed them specifically for that end. The Calvin-god, on purpose, creates most
people for the definite irrevocable purpose of being the objects of his hatred. The Calvin-god deeply wants most people to be the objects of his hatred. He
hates his own creation even before they were created or had done anything good
or evil. The creature doesn’t choose evil and then God responds to their choice. No,
the Calvin-god actually wants a large group of people to hate, so he
intentionally creates this vast group of people so that he can hate and destroy
them for his glory (causing them to be unbelievers and to sin).
The Calvinist order of damnation is this: In Eternity past Calvin-god first irrevocably hated the vast majority of his own creation even before he created them. Based on this hatred and desire to express his wrath, Calvin-god created his image-bearers as the definite objects of his wrath. The vast majority of people were created to be hated and damned for no other reason than his glory and his pleasure. The damned do hate God but only because HE (the Calvin-god) first hated them in eternity past and created them for this purpose.
The Calvinist order of damnation is this: In Eternity past Calvin-god first irrevocably hated the vast majority of his own creation even before he created them. Based on this hatred and desire to express his wrath, Calvin-god created his image-bearers as the definite objects of his wrath. The vast majority of people were created to be hated and damned for no other reason than his glory and his pleasure. The damned do hate God but only because HE (the Calvin-god) first hated them in eternity past and created them for this purpose.
This is in stark contrast to the Bible's message, which Leighton (the creator of Soteriology 101) expresses so well: “God is most glorified not at the expense of His Creation BUT at the expense of
Himself for the sake of His Creation as demonstrated on Calvary.”
Additional clarification from Graceadict:
Why is this (the point I made above about Calvinism turning God into a "non-truth-telling being") so important for Calvinism?
I have found a Big Reason that Calvinism calls upon “Mystery” so often is to create uncertainty amongst the masses in
knowing what the Bible is actually teaching. If you can create uncertainty as
to what is the TRUTH…. NOW you have the foundation to direct people away from
the Bible and to Man’s writings, to interpret FOR you what truth really is
because you aren’t sure from reading the scriptures yourselves. This then
places man's Extra-Biblical Writings ABOVE the Word, for THEY are the ones that tell
you what GOD actually MEANS. They create an "Elite Class" - mediators (themselves) between God’s Word and
the average believer.
Now Calvinism has Augustine, Calvin, Piper, Carson, Sproul, MacArthur, etc. as its mediators to tell us "what God actually means" because we supposedly can only read His lowly revealed
will but we need a deeper education to understand His secret will ... and the "elite class" (the Calvinist theologians) have that "deeper education" (the ability to understand the "mysteries") and will give it to us if we come to them and read their books. This creates a sense that there is special knowledge those men have on some sort of "secret truth" that God didn't reveal to everyone in His Word, and it essentially leads to the "hero worship" of these "elite theologians." That is why within the Reformed belief system there is such a sense of awe and
“reverence” for these mere men, because they alone supposedly hold the keys and have the brains to understand the "secret, hidden messages" in God's Word.
My - Heather's - comment to Graceadict:
Graceadict, Very well written. All of your comments. Like you said, I think appealing to “mystery” creates an “elite class.” And this elite class gets to claim they know the “real truth” and that we – the less intelligent beings – have to come to them to get it. I wonder how may cult leaders operate the same way!
I would add that my Calvi-pastor (ex-pastor, that is, because we left over his Calvinism) not only appeals to mystery, but also highlights how “humble” he is to accept it, making other people feel like the way to be a “proper, good Christian” is to accept his Calvinist teachings “in faith” also, even though we can't really understand it and it doesn't really mesh with what we read in the Bible.
He and other Calvinists say things like ...
“How can it be that God is fully sovereign (by this they mean “controlling all things,” of course) and that men are still held accountable for their actions (the sins that Calvi-god causes them to do)? I don’t know. I can’t fully understand it. Because God alone knows how that works. Who are we to try to peer into the things God keeps from us!?! His ways and understanding are higher than ours. Trying to peer into the mysteries that He keeps for Himself is like trying to be like God. But we don’t need to know how it all works together in order to accept it. God said it, and so we have to accept it. Besides, the Bible teaches both those ideas with no tension, proving that there is no contradiction between them, even though it might look like a contradiction to us with our limited wisdom and knowledge. But someday, in eternity, it will all be clear. Until then, we simply have to accept it, even if we don’t like it or understand it.”
Basically what they are saying is “Don’t question it. Don’t look too deeply at it or try to understand it. Don’t offend God or deny the Bible. We told you this is the truth, and so just accept it. Like good, little Calvinists.”
And this makes people feel like if they question Calvinism’s teachings – which are presented as iron-clad biblical “truths” – then they are unhumble Christians who are offending God and denying His Word. Calvinism is a brilliant cult-like theology, full of shaming, manipulation, altered words and verses, double meanings, the cover-up of what they really mean when they say certain things, etc.
It’s great that Drew (the author of 5 Reasons Why I Stayed Out of Calvinism) thought critically of the things he was hearing from Calvinists, instead of simply being bullied, shamed, and manipulated into “submission,” as I think so many well-meaning Calvinists are. In fact, I think that most Calvinists don’t even realize they are not Calvinists, simply because they haven’t taken the time to really explore the theology they say they believe in.
Anti-Calvinist TS00 adds:
Wow, does that give me flashbacks. Along with everything else you wrote. This is EXACTLY how my former Calvi-pastor seduced thinking people into embracing Calvinism against their better instincts. It is the same ‘trick’ that keeps much of my family still under its grip, even while privately admitting that they do not believe that God only chooses some to save. As you so rightly suggested, they are NOT (consistent) Calvinists, but have been persuaded that they must be Calvinists, due to the authority of some man’s or institution's interpretation of scripture. Add to this the fear of loss of friends, loved ones and community – and that is a real and painful eventuality – and many simply refuse to confront the logical conclusions of their professed theology.
Andyb2015 added:
Heather and TS00, Your comments on your former Calvi-Pastors hit home with me as well. We just fairly recently (January of 2019) had all we could take of Calvi-preaching and left the church we had been attending for 10 years. We heard much of the same illogic, multiple contradictions many times in the very same sermon, and the attitude that if you question their Calvinism and “mysteries” then you don’t have a “high view” of scripture or don’t believe God is sovereign (their definition of sovereignty of course). Even though we left many good friends behind, we are so glad we finally made the move. (He was just beginning to preach on Romans 9, and there was no way we were going to listen to that for the next 8 weeks. Yes, he spent 8 weeks on Romans 9!)
And now here is where a Calvinist, Jtleosala, responds:
Grace addict : If you assert God loves all humanity, then why did God never give any second chance for the following:
1. The residents of Canaan has been annihilated by Joshua’s army by the command of God, except Rahab.
2. The false prophets in the OT. Did Christ offered his life for them? The OT command is to kill them with stones.
3. The cults whose firm position and adherence is to denounce and reject Jesus Christ
4. God loves Jacob but hated Esau.
5. Jesus Christ even denies those who claim to belong to Him in Matthew 7:21-23
6. Did God loved Judas Iscariot? Did Christ offered His life for Judas Iscariot? If so… then why did he perish?
So… what can I say…
a. If your claim is true, then why there are a lot of people who are thrown and shall be thrown to hell? You will say.. "because they refuse Christ’s offer." But how can they receive the offer if it was not legitimately offered to them? The reprobates go to hell because they have not been picked by God since before the foundation of the world.
b. If God chooses a people for Himself then nobody can question that decision and it cannot be made by anyone to charge this as a distortion God’s moral character.
My - Heather's - response to Jtleosala:
Jtleosala, You’ve got a few fundamental flaws in your argument here, some assumptions you start with that ruin it all from the beginning:
1. You assume that God’s love necessarily means He HAS TO give multiple chances to people, such as cult members and idol-worshipping groups. I’m not saying He doesn’t do this, but … are you above God? Are you the one who gets to tell Him how He has to demonstrate His love?
2. You assume that He only gave the people you listed ONE chance, that He never ever gave them a “second chance.” Questions: How do you know He didn't give them second chances? Where does it say that in the Bible? How do you define “second chances”? How long does God have to dangle His “second chances” out there for people before He is allowed to act against them? Which people and what kind of choices deserve “second chances” and which don’t? How many “second chances” is God required to give us? Apparently, you must know the answers to these questions because you are judging God for His actions and His responses to mankind.
3. You assume that God didn’t love Judas, that Jesus’s death didn’t pay for Judas’s sins, that Judas never had the chance for salvation. Where does it say this? Where does it say that Judas had no influence over his choices?
4. You assume that if God really did love Judas and if Jesus’s death paid for Judas’s sin, then Judas could not have perished. This is based on the assumption that God’s love and Jesus’s atoning sacrifice necessarily and always end in the person being saved. And so therefore, if someone is not saved then it MUST MEAN that God didn’t love them and that Jesus didn’t die for them, right? All of these are dangerous, misleading assumptions. (Do you know what happens when we assume things?)
5. Likewise, you assume that no one who God loves will perish. Therefore, if someone perishes then it must be because God didn’t love them, right? Therefore, according to Calvinism, God only loves the elect because only the elect are saved.
6. You assume that since those who perish didn’t accept the offer of salvation then the offer of salvation must not have been legitimately offered to them. This is based on the assumption that the offer of salvation is irresistible. Therefore, according to Calvinism, if someone "resists" salvation then it must mean it wasn't really offered to them to begin with (that they weren't "chosen") ... because if it was offered to them then they would have accepted it because it's impossible to resist it, according to Calvinism. Assumptions! Assumptions! Assumptions!
7. And I agree that IF God decided to choose a people for Himself then none of us could question Him. But you assume that there is no “if” about it. But while God could choose people for heaven or hell if He wanted, that’s not what happened in Scripture. Yet Calvinists have decided for themselves that God elects people for salvation, and then they shame everyone who disagrees with this by accusing us of distorting Scripture and God’s character. Yet they fail to see how accusing God of being the cause of all sin while punishing us for it distorts God’s character. They fail to see how limiting God’s love and Jesus’s sacrifice to a tiny, lucky few people distorts God’s character. They fail to see how Calvi-god is a dishonest god, not saying what he means, saying what he doesn’t mean, deliberately misleading people, etc.
Calvinism is, in my opinion, a brilliant satanic distortion of God and the Gospel! And Calvinism’s fundamental assumptions will be its undoing.
1. The residents of Canaan has been annihilated by Joshua’s army by the command of God, except Rahab.
2. The false prophets in the OT. Did Christ offered his life for them? The OT command is to kill them with stones.
3. The cults whose firm position and adherence is to denounce and reject Jesus Christ
4. God loves Jacob but hated Esau.
5. Jesus Christ even denies those who claim to belong to Him in Matthew 7:21-23
6. Did God loved Judas Iscariot? Did Christ offered His life for Judas Iscariot? If so… then why did he perish?
So… what can I say…
a. If your claim is true, then why there are a lot of people who are thrown and shall be thrown to hell? You will say.. "because they refuse Christ’s offer." But how can they receive the offer if it was not legitimately offered to them? The reprobates go to hell because they have not been picked by God since before the foundation of the world.
b. If God chooses a people for Himself then nobody can question that decision and it cannot be made by anyone to charge this as a distortion God’s moral character.
My - Heather's - response to Jtleosala:
Jtleosala, You’ve got a few fundamental flaws in your argument here, some assumptions you start with that ruin it all from the beginning:
1. You assume that God’s love necessarily means He HAS TO give multiple chances to people, such as cult members and idol-worshipping groups. I’m not saying He doesn’t do this, but … are you above God? Are you the one who gets to tell Him how He has to demonstrate His love?
2. You assume that He only gave the people you listed ONE chance, that He never ever gave them a “second chance.” Questions: How do you know He didn't give them second chances? Where does it say that in the Bible? How do you define “second chances”? How long does God have to dangle His “second chances” out there for people before He is allowed to act against them? Which people and what kind of choices deserve “second chances” and which don’t? How many “second chances” is God required to give us? Apparently, you must know the answers to these questions because you are judging God for His actions and His responses to mankind.
3. You assume that God didn’t love Judas, that Jesus’s death didn’t pay for Judas’s sins, that Judas never had the chance for salvation. Where does it say this? Where does it say that Judas had no influence over his choices?
4. You assume that if God really did love Judas and if Jesus’s death paid for Judas’s sin, then Judas could not have perished. This is based on the assumption that God’s love and Jesus’s atoning sacrifice necessarily and always end in the person being saved. And so therefore, if someone is not saved then it MUST MEAN that God didn’t love them and that Jesus didn’t die for them, right? All of these are dangerous, misleading assumptions. (Do you know what happens when we assume things?)
5. Likewise, you assume that no one who God loves will perish. Therefore, if someone perishes then it must be because God didn’t love them, right? Therefore, according to Calvinism, God only loves the elect because only the elect are saved.
6. You assume that since those who perish didn’t accept the offer of salvation then the offer of salvation must not have been legitimately offered to them. This is based on the assumption that the offer of salvation is irresistible. Therefore, according to Calvinism, if someone "resists" salvation then it must mean it wasn't really offered to them to begin with (that they weren't "chosen") ... because if it was offered to them then they would have accepted it because it's impossible to resist it, according to Calvinism. Assumptions! Assumptions! Assumptions!
7. And I agree that IF God decided to choose a people for Himself then none of us could question Him. But you assume that there is no “if” about it. But while God could choose people for heaven or hell if He wanted, that’s not what happened in Scripture. Yet Calvinists have decided for themselves that God elects people for salvation, and then they shame everyone who disagrees with this by accusing us of distorting Scripture and God’s character. Yet they fail to see how accusing God of being the cause of all sin while punishing us for it distorts God’s character. They fail to see how limiting God’s love and Jesus’s sacrifice to a tiny, lucky few people distorts God’s character. They fail to see how Calvi-god is a dishonest god, not saying what he means, saying what he doesn’t mean, deliberately misleading people, etc.
Calvinism is, in my opinion, a brilliant satanic distortion of God and the Gospel! And Calvinism’s fundamental assumptions will be its undoing.
