Calvinist Comments: A God Who Loves Everyone Is Weak and Untrustworthy
On the Soteriology 101 post, "Romans 8:29-30: Or How Can We Trust God At His Word?,"...
I made this comment (updated for clarity and better understanding):
I absolutely believe that the God of the Bible is trustworthy and can be taken at His Word.
But I wonder how Calvinists can ever trust their Calvi-god when he never means what he says or says what he means - for example, "Seek me (God)" translated into Calvinism means "You can't seek me unless I make you seek me, and I will only cause those I have predestined for heaven to seek me." ...
... when he has "secret double-meanings" and "hidden double-layers" for everything he says and every term he uses. For example, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life" translated into Calvinism means "God so loved all of the elect (or "all kinds of people from all nations of the world," but definitely not "all people of the world") that he sent his one and only Son to save only the elect, that they - and they alone - would not perish but have eternal life. (And all those not elected are out of luck because Jesus never died for them anyway)."
Another example: "I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance" (Luke 5:32) translated into Calvinism means "I have two different kinds of calls for two different kinds of sinners. There are the 'elected sinners,' and the offer of salvation for them is real. And the call I give them is irresistible. They HAVE TO answer my call because I will cause them to answer my call because I have predestined them for heaven. But then there are the 'non-elected sinners,' and my offer of salvation to them is fake because I created them to NEVER be able to accept that offer of salvation. They can NEVER answer my call because I made it impossible for them to answer my call because I predestined them for hell. But I call to them anyway simply so that they will resist the call so that I can have more reason to put them in hell, making it seem as if they 'chose' to reject my offer of salvation and, therefore, deserve the punishment they get, even though I forced them to reject the call and never gave them a real chance to repent." ...
... when he convinces some people they are saved when they really aren't just so he can have more reason to damn them to hell (look up "evanescent grace," a Calvinist concept) ...
... when the Bible says that God loves everyone and Jesus died for everyone and we are responsible for our decision about Jesus, but what Calvinism's god really means is that he only really loved the elect enough to save them and Jesus only died for the elect and he's already chosen who will be saved and who won't and there's nothing we can do about it because he makes our decisions for us, but he will still hold those who reject him accountable for their "decision" to reject him ...
... when he gives commands that are contrary to his "real Will," such as when he tells Adam and Eve that he doesn’t want them to eat the forbidden fruit but then he causes them to eat it because his real Will is that they eat the fruit, even though he told them not to eat it.
Etc. Etc. Etc.
How can they ever trust Calvi-god’s commands or what he says when there’s always a hidden "double-layer" that contradicts what he said?
(Can you see why I hate Calvinism as much as I do and speak against it as forcefully as I do!?! Goodness gracious, it burns me up!!! And FYI: Calvinists won't readily reveal these "double layers" and their "double meanings," and many average Calvinists themselves aren't even aware of them. But the dogmatic Calvinists and Calvinist theologians will generally do their best to hide what they really believe, wrapping their more horrifying, unbiblical beliefs in layers of biblical concepts, biblical words, and Bible verses taken out of context, leading you to think that they are simply teaching "straight from the Scriptures" when they really believe something that contradicts the clear, obvious teachings of Scripture. If Satan can't destroy the Church from the outside, he'll try to destroy it from the inside!)
Calvinism destroys God’s trustworthiness, among other things. And if we can’t trust that He says what He means and means what He says ... then we may as well throw out the Bible, along with our faith. If what He commands us to do might be the opposite of what He predestines/wants/causes us to do ... then what good is it to listen to anything He says anyway? And what does His Word matter to us if He has already predestined everything we think and do and believe, if we can't make our own decision about how we will respond to it anyway?
Oh, the damage Calvinism has done – using God’s Word to destroy the Gospel's message, God's character, and the reliability of God’s Word, and using “humility” against Christians, making them feel that “good humble Christians” accept Calvinism without complaint and don't question what they're being taught even if it contradicts the Gospel's clear message and destroys God's character!
Calvinism makes a mess of God’s Truth. But when you throw out the Calvinism, it all starts to make sense, it’s all consistent, and you realize that God is indeed good, holy, righteous, loving, and trustworthy! Just like the Bible says (when it’s read as it is written, without wearing “Calvinist glasses” or having Calvinist theologians tell you how to read it).
Calvinist Jtleosala responded with this (he is foreign, so excuse the confusing grammar):
Here’s my counter-argument to your comment, “Calvinism destroys God’s trustworthiness, among other things. And if we can’t trust that He says what He means and means what He says, then we may as well throw the Bible out, along with our faith!”:
No, it is those people who argues that God loves the entire humanity, yet the rest are thrown to hell. These people wants to claim their own desires not God’s desires which no one can tamper even if they will continue rumble and protest. These are the people who destroys God’s trustworthiness presenting God as a weak God who needs to beg for people to agree with Him and yet does not Get what God wants for Himself in the end. The ultimate decision rests on man not God’s.
(Basically, he's saying that Calvinism doesn't destroy God's trustworthiness, but that non-Calvinists do when they claim that God loves everyone but that people will still end up in hell, that God gave men a choice about Him instead of totally controlling us, that we can reject Him even though He really wants us to accept Him. Jtleosala says this makes God seem weak, as if He has to beg us to come to Him, which makes Him "untrustworthy" because it puts man in control of his eternal destination instead of God.)
My response to him:
Look at Jtleosala's comment: “These people wants to claim their own desires not God’s desires which no one can tamper even if they will continue rumble and protest. These are the people who destroys God’s trustworthiness presenting God as a weak God ”
Wow … brilliant way of making lies sound good and God-glorifying! Such is how Satan operates and such is Calvinism.
Reminds me of the brilliant ways that the world turns sexual immorality (affairs, sex before marriage, immoral relationships, etc.) into “good and godly” by claiming things like “Well, God is love, and He is all about the love. All He wants us to do is love each other. The greatest commandment is to love one another! So He doesn’t care about who we love or how we love, just so long as we love each other. Besides, it’s those who judge who are really in the wrong, because God says not to judge others. Jesus never judged; He just loved others and accepted them as they are. He loved sinners and hated the proud religious people because they judged people.” (And FYI, they claim the greatest commandment is to love one another, but it’s not. It’s love God first, then love others. And if they get this wrong from the very beginning, then it will all be wrong! And they must be reading a different Bible if they think Jesus didn't judge sin and rebellion and false teachers and the bad attitudes/motives of the heart, etc.)
See how easy it is to use the Bible and God’s character to make lies sound like truth!
And that’s what you are doing here. Using God’s character against Him. Using Scripture against Truth.
(Well said, Br.d., about the double-mindedness of the Calvinist. They have to be double-minded in order to make their theology fit with Scripture and to be “content” with it. Because any rational, logic person would be – should be – horrified by Calvinism and what it does to God’s truth and character.)
It’s classic Calvinism: Shame those who disagree with Calvinism by accusing them of being unhumble and of fighting God.
You are making it sound like we disagree with Calvinism because we don’t want it to be true, because we want to make God into the kind of God we want Him to be instead of accepting Him as you say He is. It’s trying to shed doubt on our motives so that you can tear down our message.
But we who disagree with Calvinism are not contradicting the Bible or God as He is. We are fighting against the major distortions Calvinism makes of the Bible and God. We are fighting FOR truth, not against it!
2 Corinthians 11:12-15: “And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about. For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.”
And on a different note, in reference to a comment by someone else: When Calvinists quote “God works all things according to the counsel of his will …”, they mean “God causes all things according to his will.” They change Scripture from “working all things together” to “causing all things that happen.” Another subtle, brilliant way to make their flawed theology sound more valid.
And well said, TS00: "The astounding thing, one which Calvinism is unwilling to consider, is that God is unafraid to be challenged, resisted and rejected. He does not need to impose his will upon resistless victims in order to have a people who love him and desire to live in proper relationship with him. I pity and fear those who value a 'strong' God who always gets what he wants by force and tyranny."
[Note: Calvinists would rather have a fully-controlling God who preplanned and causes everything that happens, even people's sin and rejection of Him, and who then punishes us for it even though we had no chance to do anything differently ... than to have a God who commands us to do right and to believe in Him but who lets us make our own choices, within boundaries, and who holds us accountable for our choices.
They would rather have a God who picked a few people to love and to save while creating everyone else simply to hate them and destroy them in hell "for his glory," never giving them the chance to be saved because Jesus never died for their sins anyway ... than to have a God who loves all people, died for all people, wants all people to be saved, offers salvation to all people, and calls to all people, but who ultimately lets people choose for themselves if they want to accept the offer of salvation or not, if they want God in their lives or not.
They would rather have a God who really wants most people to be in hell and who gets what He wants by causing most people to go to hell ... than to have a God who genuinely wants all people to be saved but who doesn't ultimately get what He wants because He lets us decide.
They think it makes Him weak to give people a choice, but that it makes Him more "trustworthy" to control everything, even causing the sin He commands us not to do but then punishing us for it, even causing people to be unbelievers and then sending them to hell for it, as if they "deserved" it, even though they never had the chance to choose any differently.
What do you think? Does that sound trustworthy? Does causing us to do what He commands us not to do (sin, disobey, reject Him) and preventing us from doing what He commands us to do (seek Him, obey, believe in Him) make Him "trustworthy"?
If that's "trustworthy," I'd hate to see "untrustworthy"!]
[And for the record: Non-Calvinists do not deny that God in in control. But "God is in control" is far different than Calvinism's "God fully controls everything." God is still "in control," even though He's chosen to not actively control everything that happens. But He is "in control" in that He watches over everything, decides what to allow and what to not allow, decides when to step in and when to sit back, guides us in the right path if we will listen and obey, and knows how to work everything - even our self-chosen sins - into something good, into His over-arching, eternal plans, for His glory and for our good. He genuinely loves all people, wants all people to be saved, made salvation available to all people because Jesus died for everyone's sins, calls to all people, and will help anyone find Him who wants to find Him. And that's a God who can be trusted!
But carefully note that Calvinism will agree with the idea that "Anyone can find God who wants to find God."
But what they really believe but hide is "But only the elect can and will want to find God. Those predestined to hell, the non-elect, can NEVER want to find God because God (Calvinism's god) gave them the 'sin nature' which contains only the desire to sin and to reject him, and never the desire to seek/choose/obey him. And no one can change the nature that Calvi-god gives them or the desires that come with those natures. But then again, Calvi-god doesn't actually 'give' anyone the sin-nature; he just didn't replace their sin-nature with the "saved/repentant" nature that he gives to the elect. So he simply leaves them by default as the sinners they started out as, the sinners they 'want' to be. (Calvinists say this as an attempt to hide the idea that Calvi-god 'forces' people to be sinners, to make it sound like people are sinners because they 'want' to be, even though that's all they can 'want' because of their Calvi-god-given sin-nature which they can't change.) But if the non-elect could want to find him - as only the elect can do - then they would find him. But in reality, they can never want to find him because he made it impossible for them. But if they could..."
See what I mean by hiding what they really believe and contradicting the Bible's clear, obvious teachings! Never trust that what a Calvinist first tells you is what they really believe. Always dig deeper! And deeper still!]
I made this comment (updated for clarity and better understanding):
I absolutely believe that the God of the Bible is trustworthy and can be taken at His Word.
But I wonder how Calvinists can ever trust their Calvi-god when he never means what he says or says what he means - for example, "Seek me (God)" translated into Calvinism means "You can't seek me unless I make you seek me, and I will only cause those I have predestined for heaven to seek me." ...
... when he has "secret double-meanings" and "hidden double-layers" for everything he says and every term he uses. For example, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life" translated into Calvinism means "God so loved all of the elect (or "all kinds of people from all nations of the world," but definitely not "all people of the world") that he sent his one and only Son to save only the elect, that they - and they alone - would not perish but have eternal life. (And all those not elected are out of luck because Jesus never died for them anyway)."
Another example: "I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance" (Luke 5:32) translated into Calvinism means "I have two different kinds of calls for two different kinds of sinners. There are the 'elected sinners,' and the offer of salvation for them is real. And the call I give them is irresistible. They HAVE TO answer my call because I will cause them to answer my call because I have predestined them for heaven. But then there are the 'non-elected sinners,' and my offer of salvation to them is fake because I created them to NEVER be able to accept that offer of salvation. They can NEVER answer my call because I made it impossible for them to answer my call because I predestined them for hell. But I call to them anyway simply so that they will resist the call so that I can have more reason to put them in hell, making it seem as if they 'chose' to reject my offer of salvation and, therefore, deserve the punishment they get, even though I forced them to reject the call and never gave them a real chance to repent." ...
... when he convinces some people they are saved when they really aren't just so he can have more reason to damn them to hell (look up "evanescent grace," a Calvinist concept) ...
... when the Bible says that God loves everyone and Jesus died for everyone and we are responsible for our decision about Jesus, but what Calvinism's god really means is that he only really loved the elect enough to save them and Jesus only died for the elect and he's already chosen who will be saved and who won't and there's nothing we can do about it because he makes our decisions for us, but he will still hold those who reject him accountable for their "decision" to reject him ...
... when he gives commands that are contrary to his "real Will," such as when he tells Adam and Eve that he doesn’t want them to eat the forbidden fruit but then he causes them to eat it because his real Will is that they eat the fruit, even though he told them not to eat it.
Etc. Etc. Etc.
How can they ever trust Calvi-god’s commands or what he says when there’s always a hidden "double-layer" that contradicts what he said?
(Can you see why I hate Calvinism as much as I do and speak against it as forcefully as I do!?! Goodness gracious, it burns me up!!! And FYI: Calvinists won't readily reveal these "double layers" and their "double meanings," and many average Calvinists themselves aren't even aware of them. But the dogmatic Calvinists and Calvinist theologians will generally do their best to hide what they really believe, wrapping their more horrifying, unbiblical beliefs in layers of biblical concepts, biblical words, and Bible verses taken out of context, leading you to think that they are simply teaching "straight from the Scriptures" when they really believe something that contradicts the clear, obvious teachings of Scripture. If Satan can't destroy the Church from the outside, he'll try to destroy it from the inside!)
Calvinism destroys God’s trustworthiness, among other things. And if we can’t trust that He says what He means and means what He says ... then we may as well throw out the Bible, along with our faith. If what He commands us to do might be the opposite of what He predestines/wants/causes us to do ... then what good is it to listen to anything He says anyway? And what does His Word matter to us if He has already predestined everything we think and do and believe, if we can't make our own decision about how we will respond to it anyway?
Oh, the damage Calvinism has done – using God’s Word to destroy the Gospel's message, God's character, and the reliability of God’s Word, and using “humility” against Christians, making them feel that “good humble Christians” accept Calvinism without complaint and don't question what they're being taught even if it contradicts the Gospel's clear message and destroys God's character!
Calvinism makes a mess of God’s Truth. But when you throw out the Calvinism, it all starts to make sense, it’s all consistent, and you realize that God is indeed good, holy, righteous, loving, and trustworthy! Just like the Bible says (when it’s read as it is written, without wearing “Calvinist glasses” or having Calvinist theologians tell you how to read it).
Calvinist Jtleosala responded with this (he is foreign, so excuse the confusing grammar):
Here’s my counter-argument to your comment, “Calvinism destroys God’s trustworthiness, among other things. And if we can’t trust that He says what He means and means what He says, then we may as well throw the Bible out, along with our faith!”:
No, it is those people who argues that God loves the entire humanity, yet the rest are thrown to hell. These people wants to claim their own desires not God’s desires which no one can tamper even if they will continue rumble and protest. These are the people who destroys God’s trustworthiness presenting God as a weak God who needs to beg for people to agree with Him and yet does not Get what God wants for Himself in the end. The ultimate decision rests on man not God’s.
(Basically, he's saying that Calvinism doesn't destroy God's trustworthiness, but that non-Calvinists do when they claim that God loves everyone but that people will still end up in hell, that God gave men a choice about Him instead of totally controlling us, that we can reject Him even though He really wants us to accept Him. Jtleosala says this makes God seem weak, as if He has to beg us to come to Him, which makes Him "untrustworthy" because it puts man in control of his eternal destination instead of God.)
My response to him:
Look at Jtleosala's comment: “These people wants to claim their own desires not God’s desires which no one can tamper even if they will continue rumble and protest. These are the people who destroys God’s trustworthiness presenting God as a weak God ”
Wow … brilliant way of making lies sound good and God-glorifying! Such is how Satan operates and such is Calvinism.
Reminds me of the brilliant ways that the world turns sexual immorality (affairs, sex before marriage, immoral relationships, etc.) into “good and godly” by claiming things like “Well, God is love, and He is all about the love. All He wants us to do is love each other. The greatest commandment is to love one another! So He doesn’t care about who we love or how we love, just so long as we love each other. Besides, it’s those who judge who are really in the wrong, because God says not to judge others. Jesus never judged; He just loved others and accepted them as they are. He loved sinners and hated the proud religious people because they judged people.” (And FYI, they claim the greatest commandment is to love one another, but it’s not. It’s love God first, then love others. And if they get this wrong from the very beginning, then it will all be wrong! And they must be reading a different Bible if they think Jesus didn't judge sin and rebellion and false teachers and the bad attitudes/motives of the heart, etc.)
See how easy it is to use the Bible and God’s character to make lies sound like truth!
And that’s what you are doing here. Using God’s character against Him. Using Scripture against Truth.
(Well said, Br.d., about the double-mindedness of the Calvinist. They have to be double-minded in order to make their theology fit with Scripture and to be “content” with it. Because any rational, logic person would be – should be – horrified by Calvinism and what it does to God’s truth and character.)
It’s classic Calvinism: Shame those who disagree with Calvinism by accusing them of being unhumble and of fighting God.
You are making it sound like we disagree with Calvinism because we don’t want it to be true, because we want to make God into the kind of God we want Him to be instead of accepting Him as you say He is. It’s trying to shed doubt on our motives so that you can tear down our message.
But we who disagree with Calvinism are not contradicting the Bible or God as He is. We are fighting against the major distortions Calvinism makes of the Bible and God. We are fighting FOR truth, not against it!
2 Corinthians 11:12-15: “And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about. For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.”
And on a different note, in reference to a comment by someone else: When Calvinists quote “God works all things according to the counsel of his will …”, they mean “God causes all things according to his will.” They change Scripture from “working all things together” to “causing all things that happen.” Another subtle, brilliant way to make their flawed theology sound more valid.
And well said, TS00: "The astounding thing, one which Calvinism is unwilling to consider, is that God is unafraid to be challenged, resisted and rejected. He does not need to impose his will upon resistless victims in order to have a people who love him and desire to live in proper relationship with him. I pity and fear those who value a 'strong' God who always gets what he wants by force and tyranny."
[Note: Calvinists would rather have a fully-controlling God who preplanned and causes everything that happens, even people's sin and rejection of Him, and who then punishes us for it even though we had no chance to do anything differently ... than to have a God who commands us to do right and to believe in Him but who lets us make our own choices, within boundaries, and who holds us accountable for our choices.
They would rather have a God who picked a few people to love and to save while creating everyone else simply to hate them and destroy them in hell "for his glory," never giving them the chance to be saved because Jesus never died for their sins anyway ... than to have a God who loves all people, died for all people, wants all people to be saved, offers salvation to all people, and calls to all people, but who ultimately lets people choose for themselves if they want to accept the offer of salvation or not, if they want God in their lives or not.
They would rather have a God who really wants most people to be in hell and who gets what He wants by causing most people to go to hell ... than to have a God who genuinely wants all people to be saved but who doesn't ultimately get what He wants because He lets us decide.
They think it makes Him weak to give people a choice, but that it makes Him more "trustworthy" to control everything, even causing the sin He commands us not to do but then punishing us for it, even causing people to be unbelievers and then sending them to hell for it, as if they "deserved" it, even though they never had the chance to choose any differently.
What do you think? Does that sound trustworthy? Does causing us to do what He commands us not to do (sin, disobey, reject Him) and preventing us from doing what He commands us to do (seek Him, obey, believe in Him) make Him "trustworthy"?
If that's "trustworthy," I'd hate to see "untrustworthy"!]
[And for the record: Non-Calvinists do not deny that God in in control. But "God is in control" is far different than Calvinism's "God fully controls everything." God is still "in control," even though He's chosen to not actively control everything that happens. But He is "in control" in that He watches over everything, decides what to allow and what to not allow, decides when to step in and when to sit back, guides us in the right path if we will listen and obey, and knows how to work everything - even our self-chosen sins - into something good, into His over-arching, eternal plans, for His glory and for our good. He genuinely loves all people, wants all people to be saved, made salvation available to all people because Jesus died for everyone's sins, calls to all people, and will help anyone find Him who wants to find Him. And that's a God who can be trusted!
But carefully note that Calvinism will agree with the idea that "Anyone can find God who wants to find God."
But what they really believe but hide is "But only the elect can and will want to find God. Those predestined to hell, the non-elect, can NEVER want to find God because God (Calvinism's god) gave them the 'sin nature' which contains only the desire to sin and to reject him, and never the desire to seek/choose/obey him. And no one can change the nature that Calvi-god gives them or the desires that come with those natures. But then again, Calvi-god doesn't actually 'give' anyone the sin-nature; he just didn't replace their sin-nature with the "saved/repentant" nature that he gives to the elect. So he simply leaves them by default as the sinners they started out as, the sinners they 'want' to be. (Calvinists say this as an attempt to hide the idea that Calvi-god 'forces' people to be sinners, to make it sound like people are sinners because they 'want' to be, even though that's all they can 'want' because of their Calvi-god-given sin-nature which they can't change.) But if the non-elect could want to find him - as only the elect can do - then they would find him. But in reality, they can never want to find him because he made it impossible for them. But if they could..."
See what I mean by hiding what they really believe and contradicting the Bible's clear, obvious teachings! Never trust that what a Calvinist first tells you is what they really believe. Always dig deeper! And deeper still!]
