Calvinist (Bad Logic) Comment #1: God Does Not "Force"?
And lastly, to help you see Calvinist "logic" in action, here are some comments (altered only slightly for clarity) from Calvinists and non-Calvinists from the comment section of Soteriology 101 posts (mostly from "Romans 8:29-30, or How Can We Trust God at His Word?"):
1. A dogmatic Calvinist says: "That God predetermined Adam to eat the fruit did not prevent Adam from freely accepting the fruit from Eve and eating it. God did not have to coerce, force, or compel Adam to eat the fruit - he made the decision to eat the fruit and he ate the fruit. That God knew all that Adam would do before Adam knew what he would do and determined all this by creating the universe did not mean that Adam did not act freely. In the same way, God knows every decision that TS00 will make in the next 24 hours and TS00 will make those decisions freely for reasons unique to him."
[My (Heather's) note: Notice how he uses "God knows" to cover for "God predetermines and causes."]
TS00 (anti-Calvinist) replies:
How's this for one of [Calvinism's] twisted, illogical pretzels?
Of course God predetermining Adam to eat the fruit did not prevent Adam from eating the fruit. What it did prevent was his "freely accepting the fruit" as he had no other choice than to do what was predetermined by Calvi-god. The Calvinist can twist all he wants to, but no amount of tortured logic can negate that if God irresistibly predetermined something then no man ever has a 'free choice.'
"That God knew all that Adam would do before Adam knew what he would do ..."
This is an example not only of pretzel logic, but of the Calvinist sneaking in "mere permission" (as if Calvi-god only foreknew what Adam would do, and didn’t plan it and cause it), which, of course, is forbidden under the divine determinism of Calvinism.
Ya can't have it both ways - either God works by meticulous determinism and decreed whatsoever comes to pass, or he created human beings with genuine freedom, meaning that they have the ability to resist his will. Which means he cannot have predetermined their desires and actions. Which means all things are not predetermined, and men actually have the freedom to make genuine choices, not unavoidably carry out the secretly decreed plan of an irresistible outside power.
My reply (to a similar quote from the same Calvinist):
The Calvinist’s quote: "Yet, in all that, God does not coerce, compel, or force, either Adam or Eve to eat the fruit. They are able to act in line with their desires - desires unique to each one and not coerced, compelled, or forced on them by God."
Hmm ... he says that God "does not coerce, compel, or force" Adam and Eve to sin? But that they are simply acting out their own desires, which are "not coerced, compelled, or forced on them by God" in any way?
So ... here he says that sinful desires are not put on people by God in any way, but let's see what comments he's made on other posts (emphasis is mine):
"God CONTROLS ALL THINGS because He is sovereign over His creation. God ORIGINIATES ALL THINGS because He created in Genesis 1, God specified and enforced the penalty of Adam's sin, and God then CAUSES each person born to Adam TO HAVE A CORRUPTED HEART and to lack faith ... NOTHING originates outside of God and NOTHING is outside of God's control."
"That which originates people's thoughts, desires, actions is the sin nature combined with a lack of faith. That condition WAS DETERMINED BY GOD and enforced when He creates each person."
"And God DETERMINES all outside AND INSIDE factors by creating the system in the first place."
"God MADE PEOPLE IMPERFECT, and people's imperfection produces false perceptions."
"God ... enforces the decree that all people are born with a sin nature and without faith."
"God predetermined you to choose that which you desired to choose."
"Had God not decreed it, Satan could not have entered the garden, Eve could not have been tempted to eat the fruit and would not have offered the fruit to Adam, and Adam would not have eaten the fruit. IT ALL BEGINS WITH GOD'S DECREE."
"God CANNOT BE PASSIVE IN ANYTHING simply because He is God. There is no difference between actively ordaining and actively permitting."
"It is God who creates man with a sin nature that desires nothing of God's plan."
Let's hear that again: "It is God who creates man with a sin nature that desires nothing of God's plan."
Let's hear that again: "It is God who creates man with a sin nature that desires nothing of God's plan."
"The corrupted nature of man dictates neurological impulses and guarantees the certainty of those impulses that God decreed. People's desires come from their sin nature and their lack of faith." [My note: It comes from the "sin nature" which, according to Calvinism, was predetermined by Calvi-god!]
"More simply, God gives people a sin nature and withholds faith from them."
My reply: Oh, I get it now! Calvi-god doesn't really give people their "sinful desires." He just gives them the "sin nature" that is full of ONLY SINFUL DESIRES, that leads to them ONLY being able to "choose" sin, and that can NEVER lead to them choosing to do right unless Calvi-god causes it to happen.
Yep, this is TOTALLY DIFFERENT than Calvi-god “coercing, compelling, or forcing” people to sin! I can see now how Calvi-god doesn’t have ANYTHING to do with people choosing to sin!
Calvi-god doesn’t “compel” them to sin; he just gives them the “sin nature” that can only always want to sin.
I get it now! Totally gets Calvi-god off the hook for sin, doesn’t it!?!
Another non-Calvinist, Br.d., adds:
"In one place, that Calvinist says Calvin’s god ENFORCES his decree – and in another place says “yes” Calvin’s god’s decree is FORCE-LESS.
I think this can be stated as:
Calvin’s god uses a force that forces without forcing – by enforcing a decree which is force-less."
(For all the posts in this series, see the "Intro ..." Or look for "'Calvinist Bad Logic' Series" in the labels on the side-bar. Or find the whole series in one post, "When Calvinism's 'Bad Logic' Traps Good Christians.")
