Calvinist Bad Logic #14: Why Pray?
Bad Logic #14: I read a quote from a Calvinist once where they said something like "We have to pray because there are some things God has determined to give us only when we pray for them."
Think about this one for just a moment.
A Calvinist believes that Calvi-god controls and causes everything that happens, down to our thoughts. Everything that happens is his Will, which was predestined from before time began. And nothing differently can happen than what he willed.
But ... your prayer makes a difference!?! There are things Calvi-god willed for you that you won't get if you don't pray for them!?!
Do you hear how contradictory that is!?!
Of course, I can believe that prayer makes a difference because I believe that God responds to us, that we make real choices that have real consequences, that God is in control over everything (holding it all in His hands) but that He has chosen to not actively control everything, including our decisions and thoughts and actions, and that He works His Will out in cooperation with mankind, through our obedience and prayers.
So I can believe that our prayers matter and make a difference and that we won't get certain things if we don't pray for them and that God's Will doesn't always get done if we don't seek it, pray for it, obey in it, etc.
(To be clear, the things He Wills - His plans - will eventually get done through obedient people, but we can refuse to be part of it and we can choose to disobey. We can miss out on it. But He will eventually find someone else to be part of getting His Will done. So His Will does get done, but it’s our choice to be part of it or not. Our choices are ours, and they have a real effect on our lives, with real consequences.)
But a Calvinist cannot say that prayer makes a difference without contradicting their theology. Because if God wills you to get something, you'll get it. If He doesn't, you won't. And if He wills you don't get something, no amount of prayer will change that. If He wills you to get something, your lack of prayer won't change it. In fact, if you don’t pray, it would have to be because Calvi-god willed that you don’t pray. So how could he have something he wanted to give you if you had prayed when he is the very reason you didn’t pray?
Do you see what a tangled web this is?
If it’s all been predetermined from before time began and if everything that happens does so exactly the way that Calvi-god planned it and causes it to happen, then there is no “alternative, could-have-happened” plan. Not in Calvinism. Because then that would be Calvi-god making plans against his plans.
So then why this warning about the necessity of prayer? From a Calvinist?
If a Calvinist believes that prayer makes a difference, they are essentially denying their view of God's sovereignty (that Calvi-god predestines, controls, causes everything that happens). To say that his Will could fail to get done because of our failure to pray is a denial of Calvi-god's sovereign control and predestined Will. To say that we affect what happens with our prayers is to say that we have some sort of influence over what happens, apart from Calvi-god's control/Will. And this is a clear, horrible violation of Calvinism's fundamental beliefs.
"Oh, but God ordained that prayer is how we get the things He willed for us," they say. Basically, that God preplanned that we would pray in order to get the things He willed for us.
Okay, but then why bother warning us of the need to pray if God's already predestined it? As if we have a choice? If it is certain to happen, regardless of what we think or do or our efforts to obey, then it will happen, regardless of what we think or do or our efforts to obey!
When a Calvinist - who believes everything's been predestined and that God controls all that happens - warns you of the need to pray, try replying like this, "So then what happens if I don't pray?" And see what they say.
Honestly, the only answer they can give to be consistent with Calvinism is "Then I guess it's God's Will that you don't pray, for His glory and plans."
If they try to convince you of the need to pray, as if it has some effect on what happens, then they are contradicting their view of God’s “sovereignty” and of everything being predetermined by God.
(If a Calvinist preacher tells you that you need to tithe or join a small group or help in a ministry, wouldn’t it be fun to answer “I can’t. God predestined that I wouldn’t do it, for His glory and for your good”? And watch how they reply. If a Calvinist complains about you questioning or disagreeing with Calvinism, simply tell them "God 'ordained' that I fight against Calvinism, for His glory and for your good. I have no control over it." And see how non-Calvinistic they can be!)
Think about this one for just a moment.
A Calvinist believes that Calvi-god controls and causes everything that happens, down to our thoughts. Everything that happens is his Will, which was predestined from before time began. And nothing differently can happen than what he willed.
But ... your prayer makes a difference!?! There are things Calvi-god willed for you that you won't get if you don't pray for them!?!
Do you hear how contradictory that is!?!
Of course, I can believe that prayer makes a difference because I believe that God responds to us, that we make real choices that have real consequences, that God is in control over everything (holding it all in His hands) but that He has chosen to not actively control everything, including our decisions and thoughts and actions, and that He works His Will out in cooperation with mankind, through our obedience and prayers.
So I can believe that our prayers matter and make a difference and that we won't get certain things if we don't pray for them and that God's Will doesn't always get done if we don't seek it, pray for it, obey in it, etc.
(To be clear, the things He Wills - His plans - will eventually get done through obedient people, but we can refuse to be part of it and we can choose to disobey. We can miss out on it. But He will eventually find someone else to be part of getting His Will done. So His Will does get done, but it’s our choice to be part of it or not. Our choices are ours, and they have a real effect on our lives, with real consequences.)
But a Calvinist cannot say that prayer makes a difference without contradicting their theology. Because if God wills you to get something, you'll get it. If He doesn't, you won't. And if He wills you don't get something, no amount of prayer will change that. If He wills you to get something, your lack of prayer won't change it. In fact, if you don’t pray, it would have to be because Calvi-god willed that you don’t pray. So how could he have something he wanted to give you if you had prayed when he is the very reason you didn’t pray?
Do you see what a tangled web this is?
If it’s all been predetermined from before time began and if everything that happens does so exactly the way that Calvi-god planned it and causes it to happen, then there is no “alternative, could-have-happened” plan. Not in Calvinism. Because then that would be Calvi-god making plans against his plans.
So then why this warning about the necessity of prayer? From a Calvinist?
If a Calvinist believes that prayer makes a difference, they are essentially denying their view of God's sovereignty (that Calvi-god predestines, controls, causes everything that happens). To say that his Will could fail to get done because of our failure to pray is a denial of Calvi-god's sovereign control and predestined Will. To say that we affect what happens with our prayers is to say that we have some sort of influence over what happens, apart from Calvi-god's control/Will. And this is a clear, horrible violation of Calvinism's fundamental beliefs.
"Oh, but God ordained that prayer is how we get the things He willed for us," they say. Basically, that God preplanned that we would pray in order to get the things He willed for us.
Okay, but then why bother warning us of the need to pray if God's already predestined it? As if we have a choice? If it is certain to happen, regardless of what we think or do or our efforts to obey, then it will happen, regardless of what we think or do or our efforts to obey!
When a Calvinist - who believes everything's been predestined and that God controls all that happens - warns you of the need to pray, try replying like this, "So then what happens if I don't pray?" And see what they say.
Honestly, the only answer they can give to be consistent with Calvinism is "Then I guess it's God's Will that you don't pray, for His glory and plans."
If they try to convince you of the need to pray, as if it has some effect on what happens, then they are contradicting their view of God’s “sovereignty” and of everything being predetermined by God.
(If a Calvinist preacher tells you that you need to tithe or join a small group or help in a ministry, wouldn’t it be fun to answer “I can’t. God predestined that I wouldn’t do it, for His glory and for your good”? And watch how they reply. If a Calvinist complains about you questioning or disagreeing with Calvinism, simply tell them "God 'ordained' that I fight against Calvinism, for His glory and for your good. I have no control over it." And see how non-Calvinistic they can be!)
(For all the posts in this series, see the "Intro ..." Or look for "'Calvinist Bad Logic' Series" in the labels on the side-bar. Or find the whole series in one post, "When Calvinism's 'Bad Logic' Traps Good Christians.")
