Mike R. at The Comment Corral

Here's a comment from Mike R. in this post on my comment blog:

Hello my name is Mike.  I live in Seabrook Tx.  I have been attending a large church in the Houston area for about a year or so.  I have visited other churches but quickly realized they were reformed or Calvinistic.  I have been reading and listening intently to the new pastor and other speakers since visiting this new church to determine their views and beliefs on Calvinism but have not been able to hear any catch phrases that would be a dead giveaway.  It's almost as though they are riding the fence on that topic.  I hear the gospel preached.  I see people respond but still not certain.  Any advice on this would be greatly appreciated.  Mike  ps this is my first post.

And here's my reply (the longer version I tried to email him, not the shorter one on my comment blog, but I added a few extra notes here and updated it a bit):

Hi Mike, Thank you for your comment and question.  It sounds like you are pretty good at discerning if a church is Calvinist or not, having been able to see it in other churches.  But I know with some churches it's hard because some do ride the fence.  Some don't want to clearly pick a side.  They want to remain as neutral as possible so that they reach more people.  And that's the way it should be.  If you found a truly neutral church that simply preaches the gospel and biblical truth, then you've found a rare church.  A blessing.  

[Note: When I say "that's the way it should be," I don't mean that a Calvinist church should hide their Calvinism or veil it or sound neutral while teaching Calvinism in covert ways.  I mean that churches should stick with the plain simple truths of Scripture instead of adding their own layers to it, leaning too far into their own ideas, or teaching things it doesn't clearly say.]   

But I know it can be frustrating for those of us who believe that most churches/pastors have a position on this.  And so we want to know what the leadership really believes and if they are trying to stealthily lead us into something.  (Because if they're concealing or veiling their Calvinism to not scare people off, to deceive us about their true beliefs, to more easily manipulate us into their Calvinism without our awareness, then that's not good.  Very not good!)  Even though we recently found a church that gives the gospel call regularly and sounds like they teach very non-Calvinist things, my husband and I still flinch at any whiff of possible Calvinist-ish teachings, always alert and expecting it.  It's sad.

Here are some suggestions of what you can do (if you haven't read it, maybe check out How to Tell if a Church, Pastor, or Website is Calvinist (simplified version)):

1. Ask the pastors/elders directly - in person or email (email might be best because you get a written copy of what they say) - about where they stand on Calvinism and TULIP.  If they don't give you a clear direct answer but instead answer with a question or statement about believing in grace, God's sovereignty, that man can't save himself, etc., then they are probably Calvinists who don't want to reveal it.  

If they say something like "I don't call myself a Calvinist," ask them "How many points of TULIP do you affirm?"  If they say "We believe that we all choose what we want to do and that everyone who wants to be saved will be saved," ask them "Can everyone want to be saved?  Where does the 'want' come from?  Does everyone have the option and ability to believe in Jesus?  Which comes first: Belief in Jesus or regeneration?" and see what they say.  

A truly non-Calvinist pastor who doesn't understand Calvinism might be truly confused by these questions and why you're asking them.  But a smart, stealthy Calvinist pastor will know you're digging for answers and might feign being confused by them, acting as if they're insignificant or silly questions.     

Don't let them deflect, or turn the questions back on you, or be vague or surfacy - but insist (politely but firmly) on a clear answer.  If they are evasive too much and you sense that they are not actually answering the questions, it's probably because they are Calvinists who don't want to be found out.  

(You can also ask if they require their teachers/leaders to hold to reformed/Calvinist teaching.  Ask where the pastor went to school.  Some schools are Calvinist to the core.  Ask which theologians and theology books he recommends most, which will give you a very good idea of where he stands.) 

2. Do a search through their sermons and blog posts using the words "predestination, election, sovereign, free will, Romans 9, etc." and see if anything pops up.  And read their statement of faith.    

3. Also, listen for and look for the theologians they quote from or recommend in the church library.  Of course, some Calvinist quotes might get into even non-Calvinist churches, but look for patterns, heavy biases, or skewed resources/quotes, etc.  And listen for if they praise Calvinist theologians by name, calling them "wonderful theologians" or something like that.

4. Of course, be aware that Calvinists can deliberately sound very non-Calvinist sometimes, using words like free-will and human responsibility and choice, etc.  So if you can, ask them to define what they mean by these words.  Ask them to define sovereignty and predestination and election too.  Their definitions will tell you a lot.  Another idea: ask them to explain what Romans 9 is about.  That should tell you all.

Examples of some statements that can sound non-Calvinist while being very Calvinist: "We believe that salvation is offered to everyone, that faith is available to everyone who would accept it, and that everyone who wants to be saved will be saved.  God never forces anyone to sin or reject Him.  We make our own decisions according to our own natures/wills and freely choose to do what we want to do.  And so when someone rejects Jesus, it's because that's what they wanted to do, and God will hold them responsible for their decision.  People are responsible for their own decisions.".

But the thing they hide is this (the parts in red and italics): "We believe that salvation is offered to everyone, that faith is available to everyone who would accept it, and that everyone who wants to be saved will be saved.  [But just because salvation is technically offered to all doesn't mean that all can accept it, for God will give only the Calv-elect the desire and ability to have faith and accept salvation, and so only the Calv-elect can and will do it.  The non-Calv-elect will never, and can never, have the desire to be saved or the ability to believe in Jesus, and so they will never be able to accept the offer of salvation even though it's been "offered" to them.  They only have the desire and ability, by God's decree, to reject it.]  God never forces anyone to sin or reject Him.  We make our own decisions according to our own natures/wills and freely choose to do what we want to do.  And so when someone rejects Jesus, it's because that's what they wanted to do, and God will hold them accountable for their decision.  People are responsible for their own decisions.  [God doesn't have to physically "force" people to sin or reject Him because we will irresistibly obey the built-in desire of the nature/will that God gave us - the God-determined desire of our God-determined nature/will which causes us to do what God predestined us to do.  We do not get to decide which desire we have or which nature/will we get, and we cannot change or resist our God-determined nature or desire, but we must obey it because it's the only desire we're able to have.  And so anyone who has the unregenerated nature that contains only the desire to sin/reject God will irresistibly want to sin/reject God - that's the only desire they have because God would not, did not, give them the desire to repent - and so they will "willing choose" to sin and reject God.  And even though that's all they could want to do and choose to do, they will still be held accountable for their decision because they did want they "wanted" to do, "freely" following the desire of their nature/will - and so God didn't have to "force" them to do it.  Being "responsible for our decision" doesn't mean that we're able to choose what we want to do among truly possible options or to truly make up our own minds without compulsion from God; it just means that even though God predetermined, orchestrates, causes us to do what we do, we're still held responsible for it.]" 

What Calvinists say is often very different from what they mean.  So never accept their first answer, especially if it sounds pleasant and like it matches the plain commonsense meaning of Scripture, but ask more questions and dig deeper to uncover the deeper layers, unique definitions, contradictory ideas, and dreadful doctrines they're hiding.

5. On the other side, though, keep in mind that non-Calvinists can sometimes sound Calvinist because they grew up with and absorbed Calvinist wording/ideas even though they don't affirm Calvinist theology.  So it's always best to ask them to explain themselves more, their beliefs and definitions.  Some non-Calvinists don't really understand the debate around or dangers of Calvinism, and so they don't know enough to know they should outright reject it, instead of tolerating it.  Sometimes, a little grace needs to be given because they might not intend to sound Calvinisty, even if they do sometimes.

6. Type in your church's name on the "church search/finder" page for The Gospel Coalition, 9Marks, and Acts 29, and see if you are listed with these organizations.  To be listed with these, a church is supposed to affirm Calvinism.

Just some ideas - but, of course, nothing is foolproof, especially when Calvinists have become very good at being stealthily.  It's sad that we can't take things at face value anymore.  

But that being said, there are still some good churches out there and ones that don't directly teach Calvinism even if the pastor himself might be Calvinist.  Some Calvinist pastors truly just want to focus on the simple Bible truths and gospel, and so they don't make their Calvinism an issue or try to push it, even if it seeps in a little now and then.  Personally, I think these are probably "Calvinists" in quotes, Calvinists in name only because they don't really understand what Calvinism truly teaches at the bottom of it all.  (But many of the Calvinist pastors springing up nowadays are very aggressive with their Calvinism, even if they have to be stealthy about it.)  I hope you found a good church, but it's great that you're always trying to be discerning, to be a good Berean.  (But I know this does make it hard to ever relax and trust a church.  But I think those are the kind of days we're living in.)

God bless.  And thanks again for your comment.  

- Heather

Mike's next comment:

Thanks Heather for replying to my post.  So I took your advice and searched thru some sermon history and found what I was looking for.  Yep...full blown Calvinist.  I had emailed this particular speaker a while back but he never responded.  So now not sure what to do.  It's disappointing because I actually liked the preaching and people responding to the invitation.  Some of the quotes in his message were something like "The doctrine of divine election vs doctrine of free will....like two train tracks that lead in the same direction...these two doctrines cannot be harmonized in our own minds but they can in God's."  And he quoted Henry Ward Beecher (didn’t see his name on your list) said “The elect are whosoever will…and the non-elect are whosoever won't."  This is a large church and just wondering how many people realize that this a Calvinist church...or how many know what Calvinism is or how many even care.  Also would it be possible for others at this church who don't agree with this doctrine.  Changing churches is a very unpleasant journey.  But thanks again Heather for your help and concern.  Mike R

My reply to him:

Hi Mike, It's sad it turned out to be Calvinist.  And it's even sadder that they aren't upfront about it.  But I agree that only Calvinists talk about the doctrine of election and doctrine of free-will being like two train tracks.  (And it seems to me that only Calvinists emphasize election as a "doctrine.")  Non-Calvinists don't have to use that analogy because non-Calvinists are not trying to rationalize the wrong idea that God predestines people's decisions but then holds them responsible for it.

I will look into Henry Ward Beecher [update: I haven't found enough about his theological views to confirm if he's Calvinist or not, but he seems to be more of a liberal, congregationalist, social-reformer kind of preacher].  Thanks for sharing.  I haven't really noticed him before.  But I do wonder if "the elect are whosoever will and non-elect are whosoever won't" can be used by Calvinists and non-Calvinists alike.  It all comes down to HOW do people decide if they will or won't: Does God preplan/cause it, or do all people truly have the ability to become one of the elect by being able to choose Christ?  

Kinda like the difference between "God chooses who gets saved" or "God chooses those who choose Him (and anyone can choose Him)."  Both include the idea of God choosing (which could sound Calvinist at first glance), but one is Calvinist and the other isn't.  The difference is in when/how He chooses.  

In Calvinism, He chooses before our belief, not based on our belief, and it results in our belief.  His choice determines who believes.  Regeneration before - and causing - belief.  

But in non-Calvinism, He chooses based on our belief, in response to our belief.  Our choice determines if He chooses us or not.  Belief before - and causing - regeneration.

Same words - "God chooses" - but very different theologies.

Maybe keep trying for a response from them, just so you can get some sort of conclusive answer from their mouths, in case you ever need to refer to it or share it with others.  They should give answers to honest questions about what they are teaching.  And I understand the frustration of not knowing what to do now.  We went through that too after we realized that our pastor was a stealth Calvinist taking over our church and that no one else seemed to notice or care.  It's frustrating and disheartening, especially when no one else seems bothered by it.  Hopefully, you can find a few more like-minded people who are also concerned about it.

If you intend to stay there awhile and if you know people there, maybe begin by asking around if others have ever heard of Calvinism and if teachings like that would bother them.  Share a few resources with them, like Soteriology 101, so that they have a source to go to if they wonder what you're talking about.  And maybe try to gather a few quotes that show the pastor to be Calvinist so that you can share them if you need them.  

Basically, find ways to plant some seeds in people's minds.  Maybe it will help wake some people up and educate them.  And if they are concerned too, then at least they'll know that they're not alone, that you are concerned too.  And, of course, the best thing you can do is pray about it and ask God to open the doors He wants opened to you and to bring you to the people He wants you to talk to.  And then see where God leads.

God bless your efforts and journey.  I'm sorry it didn't turn out to be a non-Calvinist church.  We finally found one that's non-Calvinist, but we are still always looking out for it, always flinching at certain words and phrases and verses, wondering if they will fall into Calvinism themselves and then try to push it stealthily.  It's like a religious PTSD.

God bless!  And thank you for your comments. :)