Calvinism's Heart-Breaking Destruction
Wanna see some of the real-life destruction that Calvinism does to hearts, souls, and faith?
(I'm not starting up this blog again - at least I don't think I am - but I couldn't help but add this post ... and one more after it. And then I'm done. I think.😁)
Here are some comments (warning: bad language ahead) from a Reddit post called "Calvinism is disgusting", showing how people - who don't realize that Calvinism is NOT biblical - have been hurt by Calvinism and have ended up rejecting God altogether instead of just rejecting Calvinism. Sadly, it's because they don't know that there's a big difference between the God of the Bible and the god of Calvinism, between the Bible's hope-filled gospel and Calvinism's sick, hopeless, twisted half-gospel.
The reddit post starts out with this comment (I added punctuation to make it easier to read):
"I had a discussion with a Calvinist last night and it's more gross than I thought. After questioning him for over an hour, it basically boiled down to the dude admitting that god predestined innocent children to a life of suffering and then hell, and that same god is worthy of worship. Anytime I pointed out something inhumane or contradictory, he hit me with the good old 'it's complicated.' Or "We can't understand god.' One thing he won't admit is that god's a tyrant..." (Comment from Lowfisnack)
Here are some of the replies, not necessarily in any kind of order (some are found in the extended comment threads):
"Come on over to [a certain website] and we can hate god together." (DoubtingCastle)
"[Calvinists] are correct, though.... The macabre beauty of Calvinism is that it starkly outlines the horror of the Bible." (Sandi_T)
"It really is disgusting. I'm a queer and disabled person that grew up in a staunchly Calvinist family, not understanding why God wanted me to suffer so much. Studying Calvinist theology destroyed my sense of self-worth as a child, and eroded my ability to be truly empathetic toward other people - it's taken nearly a decade to work through it all." (iamsupremebumblebee)
"Yes, [Calvinism] is horrible. And the best theological system to explain the god of the Bible. Every other system tries to explain away how horrific the biblical deity is. Calvinism shrugs and is like, 'yep, god is an @$$hole, lol" (ihasquestionsplease, says he used to be a Calvinist pastor)
[I loved this comment though: "It's the worst thing to ever come out of someone's TU LIPs." (from 'deleted') Ha ha, clever!]
"Yes, Calvinism is disgusting and deplorable. It is also the most logical view of the Christian God IMHO." (D00mfl0w3r) [And to prove it, this person quotes Isaiah 45:7, about God creating "evil." But this is a misunderstanding. It's not "evil" as in "sin, moral/ethical evil," but (according to the concordance) it's about God causing distress, adversity, calamity. God can cause distressing circumstances, like a broken-down car or an illness or a natural disaster, for a reason - isn't it oftentimes our painful trials that drive us to Him, that make us call out to Him? - and still be a just, righteous, holy God. But He cannot command us not to sin but then cause us to sin and then punish us for sinning and yet still be just, righteous, and holy. This is why Calvinism is so damaging to God's character, because it makes God the cause of all moral evil, even if they try to deny it or hide it. If we misunderstand this verse (and many, many others, as Calvinism does), if we don't dig deeper and look for biblical answers to our questions, it will hurt our faith and our view of God. And like many people on reddit, it will cause them to leave Christianity altogether. But the more I research and the deeper I dig, the more God and His Word hold up and the more secure my faith in Him is. It's just tragic that many people don't take the time to dig deeper or to sift the Calvinism from the Bible's Truth.]
"Calvinism is absolutely the most theologically justified view as well, the New Testament states several times that god has elect, god predestines people, and he hates people before they even exist. There's no escaping it from a literalist reading, which just shows you how sh*tty Christianity is." (EmpoleonDynamite) [This is why it's absolutely critical to understand what election and predestined really mean! And it doesn't mean what Calvinism says it does. They are both about what happens to someone after they choose to believe, not about which sinners get to believe or how they believe. It's like God having two buses: one to heaven and one to hell. The destinations have been predetermined, but not who gets on which bus. We decide that. And once we decide which bus to get on, we will be taken to the predestined end.]
"Realizing this double-standard [when Calvinists say that God is a personal God who can be known but then they also say "No one can really know God's ways. God's ways are not our ways. We're finite. He's infinite. How can we possibly understand the mind of God?"] was the cornerstone of my deconstruction." (remnant_phoenix) [Of course, this "We can't understand God" line is true in the things that are outside of our understanding, things that God hasn't revealed to us, such as the exact nature of the Trinity or prophetic timing or how God looks, etc. But Calvinists use this to try to manipulate people into ignoring the contradictions and problems their theology creates, shaming them into accepting their twisted views that contradict the plain teachings of Scripture. And usually it's about their view that God can cause sin but punish people for it and that God says He wants all people to be saved but still predestines most to hell. Calvinists teach things that are contradictory and illogical and that are contrary to God's character and Word, and then they use "We can't understand Him" to get you to accept it without pushback, making you feel like a bad Christian if you question them or try to make sense of their theology or dig deeper for answers. Maybe they don't intend to do this or know they're doing it, but it's what happens.]
"This is the stuff that led to my deconversion. Trying to reconcile all the bullsh*t in some meaningful cohesive way..." (Smiffus)
"... All of these things you have to do [to be saved] according to evangelicals are not biblical. You don't have to repent, you don't have to hear the message, you don't have to believe or have faith... Because yahweh has already decided whether he's going to MAKE YOU have faith or MAKE YOU not have faith." (Sandi_T) [Do you see where Calvinism leads? Fatalism. Nihilism. "Why bother"-ism. "Who cares"-ism. "Throw the baby out with the bathwater"-ism. Calvinists can't see it, but everyone else can.]
"As an ex-Christian who used to be a Calvinist, what alarmed me is that all the fears about satan applied to god... [Calvinists] ascribed so many characteristics to god that could be applied to satan that made them seem indistinguishable." (from 'deleted') [This comment is right on. Satan wants people in hell; Calvi-god wants people in hell. Satan deceives people; Calvi-god deceives people. Satan is glorified when people sin; Calvi-god is glorified when people sin. Satan can't be trusted; Calvi-god can't be trusted. Etc.]
"The Calvinist answer to every question about injustice is 'f*ck you, he's god.' It's just 'might makes right'. It's a pretty convenient theology for its adherents when you think about it. They don't have to defend any absurdities or injustices dealt out by God in that paradigm because by definition he's God, so he's right and you can go f*ck yourself." (pumpkinpie666)
In response to that, the original commenter replied: "Exactly! I called him [the Calvinist who admitted that God predestines innocent children to a life of suffering and hell] out on it, saying he only worships god because he's powerful not because he's good. He only calls god good because god demands it. He deflected pretty hard and asked me an irrelevant question."
"I remember as I was leaving my faith, I thought 'If God exists, then he let my parents waste thousands on private Christian education, let me be baptized and study his word and be confirmed, let me have periods of doubt and repentance, all when he knew that I would be damned to hell.' Even when I was still a Christian, he knew that I was damned and he never helped me." (Uriah_Blacke) [Heart! Breaking! Can you see - do you really understand and grasp - the very real damage this terrible, unbiblical theology does to people!?! They have embraced the idea that they are non-elect and there's nothing they can do about it. Calvinism is NOT the Gospel!]
If you ever wonder why I speak so forcefully, so aggressively, against Calvinism, why I don't play nice with it, this is why!
Oh my goodness, my heart is breaking, knowing that - because of Calvinism, which is spreading like wildfire - so many people have rejected God, have resigned themselves to being non-elect, have embraced a hopeless life and eternity, and have no idea what the Gospel really is and what God is really like. They have no idea what a truly loving, merciful, gracious, and faithful God He is, how much He loves them and wants to save them, how earnestly He offers them (and wants them to reach out and accept) His free gifts of eternal life and forgiveness and healing and grace and mercy, and how long He holds out His hands to them and tries to woo them to Him (while respecting their right to reject Him, to spit on Him).
If they only knew that Calvinism is not the Truth, they might have had a chance.
Not sick enough yet? Read on:
From CALVINISM: does it scare you? : r/Christianity (reddit.com)
"I have been studying a lot about it and I'm getting into a big crisis in my head about my salvation and about whether God loves me or not. I am a Christian girl since birth, I had experiences with God where I felt his love and care for me, I heard his voice teaching me and correcting me many times. But finding out about calvinism made me question my faith really bad like, wondering about the morality of God and things like that. I'm afraid that this is pushing me far away from Him. It's crazy that we can live a life or devotion, prayer, study, tears, repentence, mission and in the end going to hell because God wanted so. Does it scare you? And I see calvinism in the bible and I believe, I can’t even deny or disagree because I believe it's the truth." (moonppix)
[My guess is that she doesn't really believe Calvinism but just feels like she has to believe it because it's what she's been taught by Calvinists. They put Calvinist glasses on her to help her see Calvinism in the Bible, as if it's really been there all along. And she knows no other way because of the echo-chamber that Calvinism usually creates. Side note: Of course, she is right that our good actions/behavior won't save us - because only our belief in Jesus, choosing Him as Lord and Savior, is what saves us - but she's clearly distressed thinking that she might ultimately be one of the non-elect no matter how much she wants to be saved or thinks she is saved. Sad. Hopeless. On track to fatalism, then nihilism.]
"My parents used to say “even the cutest baby is a dirty rotten sinner.” It was somewhat of a joke in our family, but also definitely what we all believed. I’m turning 30 this year and I still have trouble turning down the volume on this narrative about myself. It has led to issues in my friendships, with my partner, and now, with my parents... I have deconstructed to the [point] of agnosticism... This has crippled my emotional growth as an adult in ways..." (foreverlanding)
In response to that:
"I often wonder how different I might be had I not been raised with the teachings of total depravity. Like maybe I wouldn’t have had to spend the first 20 years of my adult life developing some semblance of confidence and self-worth. Maybe depression wouldn’t have almost killed me in my 20s. I’m not saying that my life would have been perfect and totally free from mental health issues, but it’s hard not to wonder what might have been different had I not been raised in such a toxic religion." (Starbucksname)
"The [Calvinist] concept of total depravity is so completely toxic. I'm still unlearning this as well. It does make me angry sometimes thinking about how absolutely f*cked up it is to teach children they are inherently awful just for being... The system is designed to make you feel like a POS just for being a human. I'm 37 now and am agnostic after trying really hard to believe until about 2ish years ago. I feel more hopeful and free without the church." (eab1728)
"Agreed. Total Depravity isn't the "Good News" espoused in Reformed circles... Reformed doctrine never allowed me to truly accept my own self-worth; it robbed me of dignity and replaced it with constant, grating guilt. And it's utterly worthless in the face of real hardship... I am a universalist now, which couldn't be further from Reformed doctrine. And honestly, what a relief." (come_heroine)
"It definitely did stunt you. How were you to develop empathy or self compassion in such an environment?? I am also working on recovering from this." (auntgoat)
"While I've moved past Calvinism, I'm still undoing the damage from it every day. I probably will be for the rest of my life. It's not easy recalibrating your mind from something that so profoundly effects the way you view everything." (IceWicket) [Very well said! Very sad, but very well said.]
"This is a screenshot from an email that I sent to my mom when I was 12 years old, simply titled "distressed". [In the email, the person is telling their parent that he/she is distressed, that he/she is praying and reading the Bible but nothing is happening. (They're looking for assurance that they are saved, that they are one of the elect.) And the father replies that the kid should not give up, should keep asking God to show them the way, and he says that only God can save them, only God can awaken the kid's dead spirit and make them alive, that the kid can't do anything to save himself/herself. So essentially, it's "Do something about it, but you can't do anything about it, and so wait to see if God convinces you that you're one of the elect." So confusing. So biblically off-track. Biblically, we are supposed to do something if we want to be saved: choose to believe in Jesus, to put our faith in Him. We decide that! We do that! It's our responsibility, the one job God gave us to do! And anyone who does so will be saved. But Calvinists believe that we can't choose to want/seek God or believe in Jesus, that God has to cause it to happen and that it will only happen to the elect. And if you're not elect, you can't do anything about it; there's no hope for you. No wonder the kid is distressed!] I'm so angry that I was taught that I was completely bad, simply by being human, and I deserved to be tortured by the Creator for all of eternity, AND I COULD DO NOTHING ABOUT IT. All I could do was pray to God and hope that he had mercy on such a miserable, worthless, depraved wretch such as twelve-year-old me. I lived with a phobia of hell until the cage of my mind opened when I was 22, and I could finally think for the first time in my life..." (why-homo-sapien)
"Suddenly realising that the way God is portrayed in Calvinism was the same way my abusive parent was treating me (I do it because I love you, you should be grateful, etc), and the idea that we would condemn a parent for doing something but it's ok for God, like we have lower standards for God, just seemed so ridiculous I knew there was no way I could ever go back to that again" (Friendly_Caramel6374)
"Imagine believing this. Imagine teaching your children this [quote from Paul Washer]: The moment when you take your first step through the gates of hell, the only thing you will hear is all of creation standing to its feet and applauding and praising God because God has rid the earth of you. That’s how not good you are." (toomanycatsbatman) [Does this sound like the Gospel to you? Good news? How God really is? I think Calvinist preachers take great pride in spouting off such terrible garbage, as if it makes them look more humble, more God-honoring, more hard-core or something. And I wonder, what Bible verse teaches that garbage? If Calvinists can find one verse - just one - that clearly teaches this, then maybe I'll start to listen to them more. Because in my Bible, I see Luke 15:10: "... I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." It's a huge stretch to go from "rejoicing over sinners who repent" to "rejoicing over sinners who burn in hell." And it's not even just a stretch; it's a complete reversal of what God said. But hey, "we can't understand God," right? And "who are we to talk back to Him anyway"?]
In reply to that: "A few years ago I was wondering why my self-esteem was so crap and then suddenly realised that the people who taught me to hate myself were my parents, through the medium of calvinism :)" (pktechboi)
"Hello. I can’t believe I found this sub and I have so many questions for y’all because I’m starting to question Calvinism.
I would first like to say that I still very much believe in God so please be respectful of that as I’m still having a hard time navigating other things to the point that it’s led me into depression.
Before I was introduced to Calvinism, I was not in any other specific denomination. I just started to believe in God and the Bible. During this time, my faith was so strong, I had so much joy and felt fulfilled in life. I had a deep compassion for people and loved serving others in any way that I could. I honestly felt like I had a personal relationship with God.
As I became encouraged to study the Bible on a more deeper level, a friend introduced me to Calvinism and invited me to her church. Their teachings started to “logically” make sense to me and it seemed very intellectual which I liked. After about a year, I realized that the people at this church came off as very uncompassionate and unloving towards anyone that didn’t agree with their doctrine. They were always heresy hunting, and would give us a list of Pastors that we shouldn’t listen to. I mean I always understood to stay away from the extreme heresies like prosperity gospel and such, but they were crossing out people for the littlest of things that it started becoming too much, and like a witch hunt. They always emphasized on preaching the gospel but it’s like they really didn’t care about people’s salvation as much as they cared proving people wrong through their constant arrogant and prideful theological debates. I still can’t wrap my head around the concept of the elect. I started to grow cold towards people and definitely no longer had that compassion I once had. I noticed that I personally felt farther away from God and like I couldn’t have a personal relationship with Him anymore because of all the things I started learning. The church always made you feel like a depraved wretched sinner undeserving of anything. So, I didn’t even bother praying anymore, plus if everything was predestined anyway then it felt useless for me to pray. I had become depressed and cold hearted, and I don’t feel as if I like the Calvinist God. I feel no relationship to Him and I’m just turning into a person I don’t want to be. There’s so many questions that run through my mind about Calvinism, but I have no one who understand enough to tell all my feelings to. It confuses and frustrates me, but at least I feel good writing this and getting it off my chest.
Has anyone else experienced similar feelings and how did you get through it?" (Ash_Dav_1990)
In response to that:
"... It took me over 2 years to deconstruct, I had to completely stop going to church and I even stopped reading the Bible for sometime because I could only read it through a reformed lens and it was causing too much pain and doubt..." (lilywhisperer)
"I went through a similar realisation. I felt I couldn't express my love for others or God within the confines of Calvinism..." (ParkingHat)
"Many of us who have left Calvinism have felt the same things you have, especially that isolating coldness from and towards others. The consistent lack of love of "enemies" is one of the surest indicators that even if Christianity were true, Calvinism is probably false, and is, as Paul wrote, a clanging cymbal and noisy gong. As for how I managed to get through the mess that Calvinism made in my own life, I left Christianity entirely. I understand you are a still a believer in some sense, so I won't comment much beyond that I now place an extreme, but equal, mistrust upon all humans claiming to speak or act for a deity. This is a measure to not only ensure fairness, but to also practically protect myself and my family from liars and frauds. It is their responsibility to demonstrate they are neither before they are believed." (DoubtingCastle. Sadly, it sounds like DoubtingCastle put his faith in men instead of in God Himself, and so when men let him down and proved unreliable, he took it out on God instead. He confused his distrust of men with distrust of God.)
"Your story sounds so similar to my own. Except it was my youth pastor who introduced some of us to John Piper's sermons. I thought of myself as a Calvinist for one week. One solid week of the worst cognitive dissonance I've ever had. I couldn't even see the beauty of a sunset anymore. Then I consciously decided that even if Calvinism were true, I would want nothing to do with it. I decided that I would rather stand with the non-elect than suffer worshiping something that would purposefully create people as "vessels of wrath" for the sake of gaining glory for itself. I find no love in that." (MusicBeerHockey) [Does this not crush your heart, seeing what Calvinism does to tender, trusting, young people? In a church!?!]
"Everything you say resonates. There is a ton of manipulation within Calvinism, that becomes so blatantly obvious once you’re on the outside. My best piece of advice is to give yourself permission to ask questions. Embrace your doubts. (I know you are a believer, so I am talking about your doubts about what Calvinism teaches: you are “wicked” and “depraved,” for example. Or “we have the only real truth.”) Give yourself permission to question that. Calvinism, in my experience, really is like a cult. ...and what’s gravely missing is freedom and compassion. I wish you all the best, and I emphatically second the advice of seeking a secular therapist - and be proud of it!..." (No_Orange_9968) [In this case, Calvinism has caused people to recommend secular counselors for spiritual problems. What an opening for Satan!]
"I know I’m responding a little late to this post, but I just wanted to say I have some of the same experiences. I was introduced to Calvinism by my friend. At first, I was unconcerned with it. I believed what I believed without any labels. I always thought my Calvinist friend was arrogant with his knowledge but I sort of ignored it. However, I later got into Calvinism and I became the same way: cold-hearted and arrogant. I became what I disliked my friend for. Judging based on your experiences, mine, and others, it seems Calvinist theology certainly has a correlation with making people cold-hearted and arrogant. It seems like a serious social problem if multiple people have the same experiences. At most, I’m on the road to deconstruction. If I don’t completely deconstruct, I still want to hang onto some of the morals of Christianity. I wish you the best on your journey as well." (from 'deleted')
"Calvinists tend to be pretty extreme that 'they have the right interpretation of the bible' and have the attitude 'we're right, you're wrong.' I have also experienced a lot of unloving behavior from this crowd... I also ended up leaving the faith..." (caleb-auer)
From (with a few minor spelling and punctuation corrections) I have posted on another Group as well. I NEED SOMEONE TO EXPLAIN Calvinism to me because what I understand of it is scaring me!!! : r/Christians (reddit.com)
"Okay.... so I have just watched a sermon from Paul Washer (which I thought was one of the most amazing sermons I have ever seen). That man has a fire for Christ that cannot be extinguished. But for the first time, I found out what Calvinism is. And I am scared to death!!! So if I am not elected by God to be saved, I will not be saved??? No matter how much time I devoted to prayer, how many times I have been broken by his feet have, how many hours I spent learning scripture, how many days I "thought" I was talking to my best friend. It was all just a lie??? I come in heaven just to realize I was never elected??? And get thrown into hell because the day I was born I was already doomed from the beginning??? And my whole faith is just one big hoax???" (Dingus_bellator1027)
[That's some serious struggling going on right there! And Calvinism can offer no real hope, no real help, no real comfort other than "wait until you die to see if you won the salvation lottery or not".]
From the Reddit post "Verily verily I say unto thee, f*ck this sh*t!" which starts with this quote from Kevin DeYoung (which can also be found in his article on limited atonement): "Jesus did not die for every sinner, but for His own people. The Good Shepherd gives His life not for the goats, but for the sheep":
"This was a huge factor in my own deconversion. Even if this was an actual literal proven fact, there's no way I could love and worship a being who did/does this." (from justalapforcats)
"Welp, that takes a lot of pressure off of me as an atheist. I won't worry about whatever Jesus did, because he didn't die for me anyways." (from chucklesthegrumpy)
Miss_an100 responds to that with "...When I realized our own judicial system treats us better than this sadistic god, I was out. 30 years of my life. Sure, there were good memories. But the weight of it all sure took a toll on me eventually. Thankful I can breath a bit more easy now not worrying if I have committed the unpardonable sin. I’m certain I have 100x over. ;) ..."
And finally, from Election and Suicide : r/Calvinism (reddit.com) (mature content on that post, must verify you are 18 to enter it)
"I have recently discovered the doctrine of election and I believe that I am not elect. I don't have any spiritual fruit and I hate God with all my heart. My question is, at this point is it right to want to die? Might as well go to hell now instead of later. I do not want to kill myself (I never will hopefully) but I cant see a reason to live when my end destiny will be the same." (from 'deleted')
And for one more, click here to read a reprint of a Facebook post from one man on the destruction Calvinism did to him as a child. So sad.
The gut-wrenching, hope-destroying, soul-killing fruit of Calvinism!
