A Few Good Comments From "Are Calvinist's Rebukes Rational?"
A few good comments (edited slightly for clarity) from the Soteriology 101 post "Are Calvinist's Rebukes Rational?":
A comment from anti-Calvinist, Graceadict:
Awesome article… The deeper I went into Calvinist thinking the more horrified I became at the level of distortions and how much they actually profane God’s Holy and Loving name. While they think they are glorifying God.
On the one hand they say “God is Holy,” while on the other hand they say “God decreed every evil deed that ever happened, including the rape of child.” As Calvinist James White teaches: "How do we know what is God’s decree? Answer: If it happened then we know it was decreed by God." BUT then to cover the error and contradiction [of claiming a holy God decrees sin], they appeal to “mystery” and say “God’s ways are higher than our ways and we must not judge God according to our standards ... Evil is evil but it is good that there is evil ... Evil could not exist unless God decreed it ... And so then God is glorified in all of it in some mysterious way ... We are mere men and cannot understand the infinite mind of God...."
In Calvinism, everything that has happened or ever will happen – happened by God’s decree and it happened to bring God glory.
Conclusion:
#1 “There is NOT a single thing anyone can possibly think of doing or actually do that would not be decreed by God or bring God glory.” #2 "The logical outworking of #1: Live as you will. Eat drink and be merry for everything you will do in the future will, of necessity, be decreed by God and will, of necessity, glorify God. Your life cannot help but glorify God, even if you wanted to not glorify God you could NOT actually succeed."
My friends, this is the hideous nature of this evil doctrine. It is worse than any type of heresy I have ever come into contact with. Why is it worse? Because it is as evil as it gets. And on top of that, it claims that ALL evil is decreed by [preplanned and caused by] God and brings glory to God. You cannot descend into a deeper pit of distortion than that.
Beware of how vile it actually is. (Thank goodness that most people who claim to be Calvinists don’t live their doctrine out consistently. BUT their doctrine does lead directly to those conclusions.) Also I have seen enough Calvinists that actually live somewhat consistently with this thinking…doing evil to others and claiming it was God’s will because it happened.
Anti-Calvinist TS00 responds:
This demonstrates why Calvinists cannot live consistently according to their theology. No one but a total monster is able to embrace the horrific evils such as rape or child abuse as being not only acceptable but ordained by God. No one but a monster is able to shrug off murder and genocide, saying ‘If that’s what God wants, who am I to be bothered?’ Why do Calvinists protest abortion, war crimes or unjust laws? They were obviously, according to Calvinists, "ordained by God," so should they not be accepted as much as his other ‘blessings’?
But, of course, no one lives like this, and Calvinists do not recognize their inconsistency.
[A second comment from TS00] Research has demonstrated the great lengths the human mind will go to to remain sound under extremely traumatic and abusive situations. Calvinism is the ultimate spiritually abusive state, presenting the child with a tyrannical, narcissistic abusive Father who, nonetheless, one seeks to love and obey.
In abusive settings, the victim will invent endless excuses and mental blocks – even to the point of creating multiple personalities – in an attempt to wall off the repulsiveness of unavoidable abuses. I believe Calvinists subconsciously perform similar actions, walling off the logical inconsistencies from one another because they have become convinced that there is no other option. They have been persuaded by manipulative words that these things are biblical and true, so their only alternative to rejecting ‘Truth’ is to somehow continuously make excuses for that which is unpalatable.
It is tragic that this has to occur, but it is also a wonder of God’s amazing provision that the mind has resources to enable it to survive extreme trauma.
Anti-Calvinist BR.D. replies:
CALVINISM’S SOCIALIZATION PROCESSES—MILIEU CONTROL—A CLOSED SYSTEM OF LOGIC
Socialization dynamics observed within Calvinism dramatically differ from mainstream protestant Christianity, in the emphasis it puts on adherence to doctrine. The doctrine becomes a cherished identity marker, and a trophy, which separates the Calvinist from all other Christian groups. The doctrine sets them apart as superior. The doctrine is therefore sacred.
Calvinist pastors can be observed brooding over their congregation’s assimilation of the doctrine. And it is quite common for Calvinist leaders to counsel congregations against exposing themselves to alternative forms of biblical scholarship, no matter how highly that scholarship is recognized internationally.
The Calvinist authority structure seeks to exert a much higher degree of control over information. Thus, Calvinism, sociologically, can be seen as a unique culture, having its own unique values, and its own unique language, applying what social psychologists call milieu control.
Processes at work within the Calvinist authoritarian structure controls feedback from group members and refuses to be modified, which results in a closed system of logic. It is consistently observed that Calvinists manifest a pronounced degree of partisanship - an almost obsessive allegiance to the doctrine and to idolized persons, prompting the concern that the respecting of persons within the system is so pervasive that it may represent a form of seductive entrenchment to which Christian youth are significantly vulnerable [theological 'hero worship', obsessive and unthinking devotion to Calvinist theological 'giants'].
Over time, the mental conditioning that results goes far beyond simple belief in or love for Christ, as Christ is not the central focus of the doctrine. As the individual interacts with others whose minds have become similarly “RE-FORMED”, the mental conditioning reinforces itself, and becomes a unique reality which frames all comprehension of things pertaining to God and church.
When the non-Calvinist speaks about God or biblical things, the Calvinist may quite literally hear confusion, or heresies, because his mind is so locked into the milieu and it frames his cognitive perceptions so pervasively, and he eventually cannot comprehend any thinking that doesn’t affirm his own perceptions.
Oxymoronic Calvinist conceptions of divine-ungodliness are so subliminally assimilated into the Calvinist's concepts of God [ideas such as "It's okay for a holy God to preplan and cause evil for His glory, or to cause people to sin but then punish them for it, etc"], that when he speaks to people about his theology, it sounds like he knows what he's talking about. And so the listener can't recognize when the Calvinist doesn't know what he's saying (because he makes it sound like he does], and they don't understand how pervasively the Calvinist mindset stems from a “Good-Evil” DUALISTIC worldview ["Evil and good are equal in God's eyes, God causes BOTH for His glory" - but the Calvinist feels compelled to obfuscate these theological views of theirs, and so these heresies eventually become his normalcy through the process of repeated internalized acceptance].
These socialization processes are the first step in our ability to understand Calvinistic thinking, behavior, and language.
My reply to Br.d.:
Thank you for this. It is so true. This is the kind of thing that first alerted me to what was wrong with our new pastor (a dogmatic Calvinist who was coming into a not-Calvinist church). It was the manipulation I first noticed, the “mind-control” techniques he’d use to try to subtly trap people into his way of thinking. (I guess I noticed it because I have a Master’s Degree in Psychology. So I’ve always been keenly aware of what happens in interpersonal interactions.)
He would teach his views as “what the Bible says” and tell people that “you don’t have to like it, but you do have to accept it, or else you are disagreeing with God.” He’d say that there are only 3 ways to react to the “truth” of predestination (Calvinist predestination): to ignore it, get angry about it, or accept it. (Notice that disagreement is not an option!) He’d say that “humble people have no problem accepting this stuff; it’s only those who want to be in-control and who want to live independently of God who can’t accept it.” He once snorted with derision when he mentioned people who “believe in free-will.” Etc.
He put Calvinism (but didn’t call it Calvinism) up in a “higher thinking” and “intellectually superior” category. He never had to say it, but it was the way he subtly elevated his own theology and made people feel smarter/more humble/more godly for agreeing with him. Plus, he blocked opposing views, never even mentioned that there were opposing views, and he invited people into small-group Calvinist studies (Grudem’s Calvinistic Systematic Theology). And it helps that he’s a very educated, confident, bold speaker. A very strong leader-type person.
Who wouldn’t be easily swayed – enchanted – by being invited by a dynamic, strong, confident leader into the “inner club of the spiritually-elite, theologically-superior, and exceptionally-humble”?
This kind of stuff is why Calvinism is so attractive to so many people. It’s almost like a brilliant playground bully who knows how to talk people into siding with him by making them feel good about siding with him, making them feel like they are doing the right/wise thing. This is why it spreads so easily. Because people are convinced they are doing the right thing, the humble thing, and because they are honored to be invited into that “spiritually elite club.” They are thrilled to learn the “deeper secrets” of the faith. They feel ultra-humble for “accepting” these uncomfortable, confusing, contradictory teachings without qualms or questions.
Persuasive dogmatic Calvinists don’t even really have to try too hard to drag people into Calvinism. They just have to present it as a “higher, better, more humble, more God-glorifying” level of Christianity, and the people will come to them, begging for their “wisdom.” It’s scary!
And once they are locked into that (once they become part of that “upper, elite level”), it’s really hard to get them out of it. When they get to that point, who’s gonna be willing to give that up? Who’s gonna risk offending/challenging the other “spiritually-elite” people, or risk alienating themselves from those who have been patting them on the back for their spiritually-superior Calvinist views? Who’s gonna be willing to admit they might have been wrong that whole time?
I doubt it’s the actual Calvinist theology that ensnares people, so much as it’s these kinds of manipulative tactics and the “socialization process.” I doubt we’d find many Calvinists who came to Calvinism all on their own, just from reading the Bible.
A comment from anti-Calvinist, Graceadict:
Awesome article… The deeper I went into Calvinist thinking the more horrified I became at the level of distortions and how much they actually profane God’s Holy and Loving name. While they think they are glorifying God.
On the one hand they say “God is Holy,” while on the other hand they say “God decreed every evil deed that ever happened, including the rape of child.” As Calvinist James White teaches: "How do we know what is God’s decree? Answer: If it happened then we know it was decreed by God." BUT then to cover the error and contradiction [of claiming a holy God decrees sin], they appeal to “mystery” and say “God’s ways are higher than our ways and we must not judge God according to our standards ... Evil is evil but it is good that there is evil ... Evil could not exist unless God decreed it ... And so then God is glorified in all of it in some mysterious way ... We are mere men and cannot understand the infinite mind of God...."
In Calvinism, everything that has happened or ever will happen – happened by God’s decree and it happened to bring God glory.
Conclusion:
#1 “There is NOT a single thing anyone can possibly think of doing or actually do that would not be decreed by God or bring God glory.” #2 "The logical outworking of #1: Live as you will. Eat drink and be merry for everything you will do in the future will, of necessity, be decreed by God and will, of necessity, glorify God. Your life cannot help but glorify God, even if you wanted to not glorify God you could NOT actually succeed."
My friends, this is the hideous nature of this evil doctrine. It is worse than any type of heresy I have ever come into contact with. Why is it worse? Because it is as evil as it gets. And on top of that, it claims that ALL evil is decreed by [preplanned and caused by] God and brings glory to God. You cannot descend into a deeper pit of distortion than that.
Beware of how vile it actually is. (Thank goodness that most people who claim to be Calvinists don’t live their doctrine out consistently. BUT their doctrine does lead directly to those conclusions.) Also I have seen enough Calvinists that actually live somewhat consistently with this thinking…doing evil to others and claiming it was God’s will because it happened.
Anti-Calvinist TS00 responds:
This demonstrates why Calvinists cannot live consistently according to their theology. No one but a total monster is able to embrace the horrific evils such as rape or child abuse as being not only acceptable but ordained by God. No one but a monster is able to shrug off murder and genocide, saying ‘If that’s what God wants, who am I to be bothered?’ Why do Calvinists protest abortion, war crimes or unjust laws? They were obviously, according to Calvinists, "ordained by God," so should they not be accepted as much as his other ‘blessings’?
But, of course, no one lives like this, and Calvinists do not recognize their inconsistency.
[A second comment from TS00] Research has demonstrated the great lengths the human mind will go to to remain sound under extremely traumatic and abusive situations. Calvinism is the ultimate spiritually abusive state, presenting the child with a tyrannical, narcissistic abusive Father who, nonetheless, one seeks to love and obey.
In abusive settings, the victim will invent endless excuses and mental blocks – even to the point of creating multiple personalities – in an attempt to wall off the repulsiveness of unavoidable abuses. I believe Calvinists subconsciously perform similar actions, walling off the logical inconsistencies from one another because they have become convinced that there is no other option. They have been persuaded by manipulative words that these things are biblical and true, so their only alternative to rejecting ‘Truth’ is to somehow continuously make excuses for that which is unpalatable.
It is tragic that this has to occur, but it is also a wonder of God’s amazing provision that the mind has resources to enable it to survive extreme trauma.
Anti-Calvinist BR.D. replies:
CALVINISM’S SOCIALIZATION PROCESSES—MILIEU CONTROL—A CLOSED SYSTEM OF LOGIC
Socialization dynamics observed within Calvinism dramatically differ from mainstream protestant Christianity, in the emphasis it puts on adherence to doctrine. The doctrine becomes a cherished identity marker, and a trophy, which separates the Calvinist from all other Christian groups. The doctrine sets them apart as superior. The doctrine is therefore sacred.
Calvinist pastors can be observed brooding over their congregation’s assimilation of the doctrine. And it is quite common for Calvinist leaders to counsel congregations against exposing themselves to alternative forms of biblical scholarship, no matter how highly that scholarship is recognized internationally.
The Calvinist authority structure seeks to exert a much higher degree of control over information. Thus, Calvinism, sociologically, can be seen as a unique culture, having its own unique values, and its own unique language, applying what social psychologists call milieu control.
Processes at work within the Calvinist authoritarian structure controls feedback from group members and refuses to be modified, which results in a closed system of logic. It is consistently observed that Calvinists manifest a pronounced degree of partisanship - an almost obsessive allegiance to the doctrine and to idolized persons, prompting the concern that the respecting of persons within the system is so pervasive that it may represent a form of seductive entrenchment to which Christian youth are significantly vulnerable [theological 'hero worship', obsessive and unthinking devotion to Calvinist theological 'giants'].
Over time, the mental conditioning that results goes far beyond simple belief in or love for Christ, as Christ is not the central focus of the doctrine. As the individual interacts with others whose minds have become similarly “RE-FORMED”, the mental conditioning reinforces itself, and becomes a unique reality which frames all comprehension of things pertaining to God and church.
When the non-Calvinist speaks about God or biblical things, the Calvinist may quite literally hear confusion, or heresies, because his mind is so locked into the milieu and it frames his cognitive perceptions so pervasively, and he eventually cannot comprehend any thinking that doesn’t affirm his own perceptions.
Oxymoronic Calvinist conceptions of divine-ungodliness are so subliminally assimilated into the Calvinist's concepts of God [ideas such as "It's okay for a holy God to preplan and cause evil for His glory, or to cause people to sin but then punish them for it, etc"], that when he speaks to people about his theology, it sounds like he knows what he's talking about. And so the listener can't recognize when the Calvinist doesn't know what he's saying (because he makes it sound like he does], and they don't understand how pervasively the Calvinist mindset stems from a “Good-Evil” DUALISTIC worldview ["Evil and good are equal in God's eyes, God causes BOTH for His glory" - but the Calvinist feels compelled to obfuscate these theological views of theirs, and so these heresies eventually become his normalcy through the process of repeated internalized acceptance].
These socialization processes are the first step in our ability to understand Calvinistic thinking, behavior, and language.
My reply to Br.d.:
Thank you for this. It is so true. This is the kind of thing that first alerted me to what was wrong with our new pastor (a dogmatic Calvinist who was coming into a not-Calvinist church). It was the manipulation I first noticed, the “mind-control” techniques he’d use to try to subtly trap people into his way of thinking. (I guess I noticed it because I have a Master’s Degree in Psychology. So I’ve always been keenly aware of what happens in interpersonal interactions.)
He would teach his views as “what the Bible says” and tell people that “you don’t have to like it, but you do have to accept it, or else you are disagreeing with God.” He’d say that there are only 3 ways to react to the “truth” of predestination (Calvinist predestination): to ignore it, get angry about it, or accept it. (Notice that disagreement is not an option!) He’d say that “humble people have no problem accepting this stuff; it’s only those who want to be in-control and who want to live independently of God who can’t accept it.” He once snorted with derision when he mentioned people who “believe in free-will.” Etc.
He put Calvinism (but didn’t call it Calvinism) up in a “higher thinking” and “intellectually superior” category. He never had to say it, but it was the way he subtly elevated his own theology and made people feel smarter/more humble/more godly for agreeing with him. Plus, he blocked opposing views, never even mentioned that there were opposing views, and he invited people into small-group Calvinist studies (Grudem’s Calvinistic Systematic Theology). And it helps that he’s a very educated, confident, bold speaker. A very strong leader-type person.
Who wouldn’t be easily swayed – enchanted – by being invited by a dynamic, strong, confident leader into the “inner club of the spiritually-elite, theologically-superior, and exceptionally-humble”?
This kind of stuff is why Calvinism is so attractive to so many people. It’s almost like a brilliant playground bully who knows how to talk people into siding with him by making them feel good about siding with him, making them feel like they are doing the right/wise thing. This is why it spreads so easily. Because people are convinced they are doing the right thing, the humble thing, and because they are honored to be invited into that “spiritually elite club.” They are thrilled to learn the “deeper secrets” of the faith. They feel ultra-humble for “accepting” these uncomfortable, confusing, contradictory teachings without qualms or questions.
Persuasive dogmatic Calvinists don’t even really have to try too hard to drag people into Calvinism. They just have to present it as a “higher, better, more humble, more God-glorifying” level of Christianity, and the people will come to them, begging for their “wisdom.” It’s scary!
And once they are locked into that (once they become part of that “upper, elite level”), it’s really hard to get them out of it. When they get to that point, who’s gonna be willing to give that up? Who’s gonna risk offending/challenging the other “spiritually-elite” people, or risk alienating themselves from those who have been patting them on the back for their spiritually-superior Calvinist views? Who’s gonna be willing to admit they might have been wrong that whole time?
I doubt it’s the actual Calvinist theology that ensnares people, so much as it’s these kinds of manipulative tactics and the “socialization process.” I doubt we’d find many Calvinists who came to Calvinism all on their own, just from reading the Bible.
