Calvinist salvation, pride, deception, etc.

Here are a few comments I made on Soteriology 101's most recent blog post, (Re)Thinking Through Romans 9.  (They don't add new posts to the blog, so check out Soteriology 101's Youtube channel for new content.)  Since I spend so much time writing these comments, I like to get double-use out of them by publishing them here too (slightly edited or reworded for clarity, and with some additions).

My Comment #1, about Calvinism being unable to save anyone:

I’m sure Calvinists would be offended by this, but being a Calvinist does not automatically make one a Christian.  

I think there are a lot of Calvinists who are Christian because they were Christian first, before being brainwashed into Calvinism.  (Calvinism is more about hijacking non-Calvinist Christians/churches than it is about leading the unsaved to Christ.)  But I wonder about those who were "saved" through Calvinist teaching (if Calvinists were honest about what they really believed) - if those converts are really saved or not.  And here's why:

Calvinist theology (if Calvinists were honest about it) teaches that sinners can’t choose to believe in Jesus, that it’s not up to them if they put their faith in Jesus, that God has to do it to them (if they were chosen), and that if you’re elect then all you really have to do - all you really can do - is come to the realization one day that you’re elect, that you’re already saved.

How in the world can someone truly be saved that way, being told they can’t choose to believe in Jesus, that it will just happen to them one day if they are already saved from before time began?  

Choosing to believe in Jesus, to put our faith in Him, is the ONE JOB God gave mankind in order to be saved, the one “work” God said is our responsibility:

Acts 16:30-31: " 'Sirs, what must I do to be saved?'... 'Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved...'" 

John 6:28-29: "Then they asked him, 'What must we do to do the work God requires?'  Jesus answered, 'The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.'"

And yet Calvinism denies it, saying that we cannot do the one thing God told us we need to do to be saved.  It's like if God said "You need to choose to reach out and grab this golden ticket if you want to go to heaven," but then Calvinists say, "But reaching out and grabbing the ticket is works, and since you can't work for salvation then you can't reach out and grab the ticket.  All you can do is wait to see if God puts the ticket in your hands, if He has predestined you to get a ticket.  You can't do it yourself; God has to do it for you."

What an attack on the gospel and God’s truth!  What a corruption!  And how in the world can anyone really be saved under Calvinism then?  

Calvinism doesn’t actually rescue any sinner from hell - because the elect were never on their way to hell, never at risk of going to hell at any point in time, and the non-elect can never be rescued from hell because Calvi-Jesus never died for them and Calvi-god made it impossible for them to believe.

All Calvinism does is convince some people that they’ve always been saved without ever having to do anything about it, not even choosing to believe in Jesus [because in Calvinism, we can't choose to believe in Jesus], while convincing others that they can never be saved, that God doesn’t love them, that Jesus didn’t die for them, and that there’s no hope for them.

A lie from the pit of hell.  Destroying the evangelical church from the inside out.  And it will cost people their souls.

[Calvinism is NOT the gospel.  The gospel, in a quick sentence, is "believe in Jesus as Lord and Savior to be saved" (and anyone can).  But Calvinism is "if you are already saved (prechosen to be saved), you'll believe in Jesus when God makes you believe in Jesus" (and no one else can).  Very different!  

And before all the Calvinists get their undies in a bunch, I'm sure there are plenty of people who really did come to Christ in a Calvinist church - because Calvinism does have a biblical surface-layer covering their unbiblical deeper layers.  And so people can find Christ in this surface layer, especially if they don't yet realize the unbiblical side of Calvinism.  But in these cases, they became believers in spite of Calvinism, not because of it.

To see some of what Calvinists themselves say, see "A Crash Course in Calvinism (Calvinist Quotes)"]

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My Comment #2, about Calvinist pride:

Yeah, I think Calvinism (and many cults and false religions out there) thinks it has some sort of hidden, secret knowledge that we have to go to Calvinists to get.  If we could read and understand the Bible for ourselves, Calvinism would be out of business.  And so they need to make it seem like it’s some sort of elite, upper-level, deeper knowledge of the Bible, and we can only understand it if we go to them.  (That should be a warning sign for us, that they make us feel like we need to spend months studying their Calvinist books in order to know what God supposedly really meant to say.)

Not only does this make the Calvinist teachers feel superior and needed, but it makes the followers feel special to be included in such a high-level, “theologically-superior” society… and feel smarter than the average Christian to have found out “the secret wisdom”… and more humble than the average Christian for being willing to accept such terrible-sounding things (such as that Calvi-god ordains child abuse and predestines people to hell and causes evil for his glory) and for submitting themselves to such extreme (and horrifying) views of God’s sovereignty.  

They are the smartest, most-God-honoring, most humble, most hard-core Christians!  

In their minds.  

[Of course, I think all of this is unconscious for them, but I think it’s there.  And it’s part of what makes Calvinism so appealing.  I think most average Calvinists truly desire to be humble and to bring God glory (the Calvinist friends we left behind are some of the nicest, most genuine, kind, humble people we know)... and I think Calvinism uses their desire to be humble and God-honoring against them, just like it uses God’s Word and God's glory against God.  And I'm not coming down hard on the average, well-meaning, naive Christians who are manipulated into Calvinism (I'm sympathetic to them and trying to help free them), but on the theology itself and the teachers who manipulate the average, well-meaning, naive Christians.  The teachers will be doubly accountable for the lies they taught, the deception and manipulation they do, and the ways they twist Scripture and destroy God's character and Jesus's sacrifice.  But the ones being manipulated will be responsible for allowing themselves to be tricked and trapped, for not knowing and clinging to the plain reading of Scripture, for not being a Berean.]

But I, however, say that the gospel in God’s Word can be clearly, plainly understood in a commonsense way by any person - because God says what He means and means what He says.  And so we don’t need Calvin's Institutes or Grudem's Systematic Theology or MacArthur's musings.  We don't need to go to Calvinists to find out what God supposedly “meant to say” (especially when it contradicts the plain, commonsense meaning of the verses).  God said what He meant to say, and we can read all about it in the Bible.

 

It's almost like Augustine and John Calvin were like "Well, the simple gospel's been around for hundreds of years.  Anyone can understand something so simple, and it's getting a little stale.  What can we do to spice it up?  I know, let's redefine words and add extra hidden layers (things God never said) and double-meanings, and then let's convince people that they have to come to us if they want to learn 'the truth.'  That will give us something new to talk about and keep us in business, in control.  Job security, baby!"

Calvinists look at a verse - verses that are very clear, easy to understand, and consistent with the rest of Scripture and with God's character - and they say, "But no, that's not what it really means.  Here, read Sproul or MacArthur or Piper or Grudem to see what God really meant to say here."  

They try to convince you that there's a deeper layer underneath the surface layer of what God said, a deeper message/truth that actually ends up contradicting or negating the plain, clear, easily-understood, face-value message of the verse.  

This should be a huge red flag.  

Calvinists do not take God at His Word.  They pride themselves on holding the Bible in high regard - on having a "high view of Scripture" - but they do not take it at face-value, the way God wrote it.  They believe God speaks in code and double-talk, that He contradicts Himself (and that it's okay because "Sovereignty!" and "It's for His glory!" and "It's a mystery. Who are you, O man, to talk back to God anyway?"), that He says one thing but means another.  

But this would make Him duplicitous and untrustworthy (in Calvinism).  

And if He's a two-faced, untrustworthy God, then how could any Calvinist trust their election, that He really did elect them to be saved and gave them real faith?  A two-faced, untrustworthy God who says one thing but means another could have easily said that they were elect when they really weren't.  (Because "Sovereignty!" and "It's for His glory!" and "It's a mystery. Who are you, O man, to talk back to God anyway?")  What assurance do Calvinists really have about their election - what support can they fall back on - when their Calvinist God is untrustworthy?

[So what does a Christian's assurance of salvation really rest on?  On the fact that our God  - the God the Bible who says what He means and means what He says - is a God who can be trusted.  And so we can trust that if we do what He said we need to do to be saved (believe in Jesus) then He will do what He said He would do (give us eternal life).  

Calvinists have no such assurance - because Calvi-god cannot be taken at his word.  

If you want to attack God, a most effective way is to discredit His Word, His trustworthiness - because if you don't have a God worth trusting, you don't have a God worth believing in, worth relying on, worth worshipping, worth loving.  Calvinism has done a great job of this!] 

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My Comment #3, about Calvinist contradictions:

Non-Calvinist Br.d. had made the comment: "In Calvinism – there is no such thing as the creature having a 'Choice' between any two CONTRARY options.  Because there is no such thing as an option granted to the creature – that is CONTRARY to the decree.”

Yep!  And yet what is the nonsensical answer Calvinists give when people disobey something God commanded: “Well, God decrees that we disobey His decrees.”  It’s insane.  And what a mess it makes of God’s character and commands and Word.

Such as you (Br.d.) pointed out “So in Calvinism – Adam was not given a choice between [EAT] and [NOT EAT].  Because – [NOT EAT] was not available to Adam.”

What damage this does to God’s character when we really think about it!  God commanded Adam to not eat the fruit, yet the ability to not eat it was not available to Adam.  So God commanded something He made impossible, but then He punished Adam for it.

Not to mention that God (Calvi-god) really wanted/willed that Adam would eat the fruit for His glory, but then He commands the opposite.  He commands what He doesn’t want, what’s not His Will.  And He causes the opposite of what He commands.  How contradictory!

And so, which one was truly His Will then: what He commanded or what He “caused”?  And then how can we ever trust that any command He gives is what He really wants us to do?  Is “don’t murder” what He really wants, or is it just what He SAYS He wants but then when someone murders it’s because that’s what He REALLY wanted, even though He said “don’t murder”?  And what does it matter anyway if it’s that He controls all we do and we couldn’t do anything differently?

What a mess Calvinism makes of God, His character, His truth, His Word, etc.!

As you said, Calvinists use misleading language.  And this is how it escapes the notice of so many people – because it sounds good on the outside, until you really think about it, ask questions, dig deeper, connect the dots, and carry Calvinist views out to their logical, inevitable ends.  And this is why they have to use manipulation and shaming: to prevent people from asking questions, digging deeper, connecting the dots, and carrying their ideas out to the logical, inevitable ends.  

[Calvinists - when asked the hard questions or when people point out their contradictions or the ways Calvinism turns God into a monster - have even said, "We can't use human logic to figure out God or to understand His ways because He is so far above us."  Of course, this is true in some things, especially the things God hasn't revealed to us in His Word (such as exactly how the Trinity works), but it is not true when someone is trying to deny/change/tweak the things that are clearly revealed in Scripture, such as what Calvinism does to God and His Word.  But Calvinists use this to try to shame you into setting aside your reasoning abilities, deadening your discernment, shutting off your critical thinking skills, so that you don't ask the hard questions or figure out what they are really teaching you underneath the surface.  And so they resort to endless variations of "Don't ask.  Don't think too much about it.  Just accept what we tell you.  If you question Calvinism, then you are questioning God and doubting the Bible.  Who are you, O man, to talk back to God anyway?"]  

This is what makes me so angry with Calvinism - the cult-like tactics they use to suck in trusting, naive, humble, well-meaning people and trap them.  A genuinely-godly theology should not have to resort to deceptive tactics like these.

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And here's a bonus one from Why both Atheists and Christians need to believe in free-will (I'm including it here because it kinda fits, showing the nonsensical, contradictory, baseless thinking of Calvinists):

John (a Calvinist) said: 

"We stand in the shadows of opinions and conjectures when truth is Gods hand is on everything that was,is,and will be.  That thought is not made up it is backed up by biblically based FACTS.  It is not hard for fallen man to think he plays a role in this thing called life.  Because man is incapable of giving up control of their very existence.  I myself tell all that will listen I’m a TULIP man.  And even though scripture is clear I realize I can’t surrender up my fallenness.  That’s why we are being sanctified.  This process that we don’t complete until death.  But I’m not foolish enough to think I can choose because if I have the will to chose even though the Bible says I don’t than why in the world would I not choose heaven.  Until we can look at the entire word with bring our personal believes then we will be fooled until as John tells us The scales are removed.  But God created to do his will and his will is not one of change or confusion.  All this is spelled out in the pages of scripture For me I do not make conclusions based on what I wish the word to say but what it says and I do not wish to step outside those truths because in the Bible it warns us not to add or take away form the Bible.  And thus I will not"

My reply:

Hello John, I found your reply very confusing, and there are a few things I thought about replying to, but I figured I’d narrow it down to this: “For me I do not make conclusions based on what I wish the word to say but what it says and I do not wish to step outside those truths because in the Bible it warns us not to add or take away form the Bible.  And thus I will not.”

You brag that you don’t make conclusions based on what you wish the Word says, but if you cannot make choices (as you said “I’m not foolish enough to think I can choose”) then that means that the wishes you have that the Word would say something different than what it actually says are not from you (because you can’t choose to decide anything) but were planted there by God.  Therefore, God “ordained” that you wished the Word would say something different than what it says, and then He “ordains” that you accept what it says (at least, what you THINK it says) instead.  Why would God do that?  For glory?  And why are you bragging about it if you had no control over it, no ability to choose to put your wishes aside?  Are you trying to steal God’s glory?

And you say that you do not wish to step outside the truths of the Bible, that you do not add or take away from God’s Word but that you accept it as it is.  I’m wondering, which of the following Calvinist beliefs do you find clearly, plainly in God’s Word?  If these views are in the Bible clearly and plainly – if it is (as you call it) “what it says” – then you should be able to provide a chapter and verse (not reading into a verse something that’s not there or providing a mish-mosh of verses taken out of context).

1. “Sovereign” means God has to predestine and control everything – every sin, every thought, every speck of dust – or else He can’t be God.  (Which verse in the King James has the word “sovereign” or “soveriegnty” in it?)

2. It’s impossible to seek God unless God causes you to do it, and He will only cause the elect to do it.

3. “Spiritually dead” means you are “dead like a dead body and cannot do anything but lay there all dead; you are unable to want God or think about God unless God enables you to do it.”

4. The Holy Spirit has to regenerate you before you can believe, in order to make you believe.

5. Faith is something God implants into select people to make them believe.

6. God only chose a few people to save but predestined the rest for hell.

7. God only really loves those He predestined to save.

8. Jesus only died for those God predestined to save.

9. God has two different Wills that oppose each other: a revealed Will and a hidden, unspoken Will.

10. God has two different kinds of calls, one for the elect that they must respond to and one for the non-elect that they cannot respond to.

11. Adam and Eve lost the right to make decisions as a result of the Fall.

12. God ordains (which, in Calvinism, means preplanned and causes) sin, evil, and unbelief for His glory.

13. And which verses contain the phrases “total depravity,” “unconditional election,” “limited atonement,” and “irresistible grace”?  (Yet it's ironic that Calvinists complain that ‘accept Jesus in your heart’ is not in the Bible”.  See "Is 'Accept Jesus in Your Heart' Unbiblical and Dangerous?")

14. And as my Calvinist ex-pastor once said, “We tend to have a problem with the idea that God can choose who to save and who not to save.  We don’t like it.  But the Bible clearly teaches it.  The Bible calls it ‘the doctrine of election, the doctrine of predestination’.”  Where in the Bible is the phrase “doctrine of election” or “doctrine of predestination”?  He said the Bible calls it that, so it must be in there somewhere.

Unless you can find verses that clearly and plainly say these Calvinist things (as clearly as, say, “For God so loved the world …” and “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world” and “God does not want anyone to perish but wants everyone to come to repentance” and “God does not have any pleasure in the death of the wicked but would rather that they turn from their wicked ways and live” and "Seek me and live" and "Whoever believes in Him will have eternal life," etc.), then you might want to rethink if your Calvinist views are truly “what the Bible says.”  Just a friendly suggestion.